1st Debate! Existence of Fundamentalist God!

[Mirai]

Now, then. I think I'll kick off the first thread in the debate subforum.

Personally, I do not think that the fundamentalist version of any God can exist, according to what the world is.

First, let us define what the fundamentalist version of the Christian God is, since it's the only one I'm familiar with.

1) MUST be and do EXACLTY what the Bible says. All literal.
2) Omnipotent.
3) Omnibenevolent.
4) Omniscient
5) Infallible

First, let us take out #2. Can an omnipotent being lift an unliftable rock? If he can, that rock is not unliftable. If he can't, that is something he can't do.

Now, #3. and #1. According to the "Holy" Bible, all those who do not submit themselves to God will have eternal punishment in Hell. Let's take ME for example. I am atheist, yet I am a philosopher. I am a humanist. Is it right to put me, one who has done nothing wrong, in the same place as Hitler? I do not see that as kind, let alone omnibenevolent.

#4. Sin happened because of Adam and Eve's Fall of Grace. God could have easily stopped this, and save the entire world's suffering. But he did not! Infact, he was SURPRISED! If he was omniscient, he would have KNOWN what would happen! Then WHY did he stop it?

#5. I can't remember this story well, but I got the gist of it. God chose one of Noah's sons to be the ancestor of Jesus, correct? However, if I remember correctly, that son did a sin, and God chose another son. Therefore, he was wrong about the first son being the ancestor of Christ. This also goes under #4.

Ready, set, DEBATE!

[Gravity]

Well, being Catholic, I can't help but disagree.

I think that just because our so-called "science" says that God can't exist doesn't mean that it's true. He's real...you just have to believe it in your heart.

Yeesh, that sounds corny.

[Spitfire]

First let me state I am on the border of agnostic and atheist. And I as well study theology.

Now many christians and catholics believe that what god does he does for a reason, so according to many priest and religious scientists the idea that god has a plan will forever be the one that is turned to. So by that god wanted to release sin upon the world, for some greater good or for all we know to see the downfall of a creation. Now I agree with you on the points of being omniscient and omnipotent, it does not seem logical that unmovable rock can be movable by the hand of god, but I have encountered many illogical ideas in christian ideas.

[RoxasNoxas]

I'm a Christian... I really do not understand what you were saying about #4.
God gave Adam and Eve the choice to sin, or not to sin, when he created them.
If humanity didn't have the choice, we'd all be like robots!

[Spitfire]

I'm a Christian... I really do not understand what you were saying about #4.
God gave Adam and Eve the choice to sin, or not to sin, when he created them.
If humanity didn't have the choice, we'd all be like robots!

I think what is being said is that, why would he create something that had such a flaw, and why did he not stop that, or create something to resist the urge to sin/cast sin upon us all. Its not saying that our freedom is taken away, just we would know what is right and wrong in that sense.

[RoxasNoxas]

I think what is being said is that, why would he create something that had such a flaw, and why did he not stop that, or create something to resist the urge to sin/cast sin upon us all. Its not saying that our freedom is taken away, just we would know what is right and wrong in that sense.

To answer that question, we first have to hear where sin comes from.
It comes from Satan/Lucifer/whatever you want to call this guy.
Lucifer was an angel. Angels all had choices just like humans. The book of Genesis in the Old Testament says that Lucifer was one of the most beautiful angels. He had a huge ego and a prideful attitude, and thought that he was even better than God. God sent Lucifer down to Hell, and all the angels who were joined with Lucifer. Now, all Lucifer wants to do is to get revenge on God's creation, humans, since we were made in God's image. The Devil and all his demons tempt us to do sin. Yes, God could have stopped all of this, but it wasn't in his plan.

[Cin]

The entirety of christianity is just messed up. "Beleive what I beleive or burn in a firey pit for all eternity." Does that sound very christian? The whole bible was a book made up to create a set of guidelines and values, as well as to explain the world around us. God and all his stories is outdated, because we now have science to explain things. I don't beleive in god, I'm athiest as most of you know, and I have noticed each of the flaws mentioned during my ventures into the christian world when I was younger. There's so much condriction, so much pain, so many uneeded values, so many restrictions, so much unfairness, and so much evil that spews forth from the bible and it's followers everyday, there's no way a god could exist. MOST of the wars in history were fought of this "god". MOST fo the world bases their lives on religion. And where does this lead us? To fighting. A god would never allow this. Sure, he gives us "choice", but doesn't it also say that he has a plan? If he has a predetermined path set for us, then we don't have a choice now do we? God is just so farfetched, the whole idea just doesn't match up with todays society, christianity is a blast fromt he past, a tie to earlier times that only weighs us down. If we as humans want to ever advance past what we already are, we need to break that tie, and get rid of the false gods that still hold us so tightly in their hands, fake or not.

[Darkwatch]

Well, being Catholic, I can't help but disagree.

I think that just because our so-called "science" says that God can't exist doesn't mean that it's true. He's real...you just have to believe it in your heart.

Yeesh, that sounds corny.God can be real, sure. Anything is possible. But remember, you can't use your opinion to guarantee he exists. God was written into text long ago when people weren't modernized at ALL. They were still using stones and having basic civilization. It wasn't until 1300-1500 that the renaissance kicked in and everyone became intelligent and not slaves to their deity's. God is, to this very day, worshiped almost primarily out of fear. I used to be Christian, before I started studying all kinds of religions--and I used to HATE the idea of not believing in God. I thought my life would be a terrible one if I ever admitted to myself I didn't believe in God. So I was in denial.

So essentially, the entirety of Christianity is almost impossible to prove.


I'm a Christian... I really do not understand what you were saying about #4.
God gave Adam and Eve the choice to sin, or not to sin, when he created them.
If humanity didn't have the choice, we'd all be like robots!What?

No we wouldn't. We're living people made up of cells. We'd be exactly as we are now.

The entirety of christianity is just messed up. "Beleive what I beleive or burn in a firey pit for all eternity." Does that sound very christian? The whole bible was a book made up to create a set of guidelines and values, as well as to explain the world around us. God and all his stories is outdated, because we now have science to explain things. I don't beleive in god, I'm athiest as most of you know, and I have noticed each of the flaws mentioned during my ventures into the christian world when I was younger. There's so much condriction, so much pain, so many uneeded values, so many restrictions, so much unfairness, and so much evil that spews forth from the bible and it's followers everyday, there's no way a god could exist. MOST of the wars in history were fought of this "god". MOST fo the world bases their lives on religion. And where does this lead us? To fighting. A god would never allow this. Sure, he gives us "choice", but doesn't it also say that he has a plan? If he has a predetermined path set for us, then we don't have a choice now do we? God is just so farfetched, the whole idea just doesn't match up with todays society, christianity is a blast fromt he past, a tie to earlier times that only weighs us down. If we as humans want to ever advance past what we already are, we need to break that tie, and get rid of the false gods that still hold us so tightly in their hands, fake or not.
To add to that, when God gave moses the 10 commandments, one of them says "Thou shalt not kill." But WHY has God killed so many people in the Bible? God shuned and angel, killed many people of ancient Jeruselum (as the bible says), and for what? He contradicts himself. Whether he killed those people or not, he is the cause of it. He is a God who makes himself look like a fool.

A God worth anything would never do that. A "perfect" God would give us love and not kill countless people. He makes Lucifer look like an innocent child, for crying out loud.

The Devil only killed/caused killings of what, 3, 4, maybe 5 people in total?

It makes no sense. Christianity as a whole doesn't make much sense. Even back in the time of Judaism, it still has the same logic and principles. Always giving itself flaws and mistakes.

Maybe if the angels wrote it and gave it to us, instead of having us 'flawed' humans write it, it'd be better. And judging by the physics of the typical human, no one could have kept that book without changing it--just like John did.

So no, I feel God doesn't exist.

[Roxas-]

I believe there is a god, but not the god that christians believe in. He is more of a spiritual being.

That's just what I think.

[Spitfire]

I believe there is a god, but not the god that christians believe in. He is more of a spiritual being.

That's just what I think.

I like that idea, kinda like the whole god is with in us all. We just need to find it and imbrace it.

[Laurence_Fox]

Oi vey a religious debate....Well I'll take my crack at it. -cracks knuckles-

I'd like to say first off that I had 12 years of a Catholic Education. I have literally read the bible from cover to cover and it is full of propaganda that you wouldn't believe. The book is written by men for men in "the name{only} of God" to convert "infidels to the light".

God has so much blood on his hands that he makes Lucifer look like a boy scout. Wars have been fought in God's name predating the Crusades. Back during the days of the Church's "convert or die a painful death" days. How would the Christians feel if, for example, the Muslims came in and did the same thing to us? Making the Christians convert to Islam or killing us?

Maybe you'd understand the Pagans who died a little better.

And as for Hell being one giant pit where a humanist/philospher would be grouped in with Hitler, I see Hell as more of how Dante Algheri wrote it in the Inferno. With many levels according to the sin. Philosphers such as Aristotle and Plato were kept in almost a Edenesque garden as their only sin was not being baptized/living before Jesus came.

And if God is all forgiving, why is there a need for a Hell? Aside to contain Lucifer and the angels that sided with him? Is it the stories of the Boogeyman or Santa Claus all over again? 'Jimmy, don't say that or you're going to Hell.' 'Johnny, don't play that game or you're going to hell.' Sorry to compare Hell to Santa Claus but it is the same principle employed by the Church to get us to behave.

And how did Lucifer {whose name means "Bringer of Light" or "Morning Star" } go from the most favored of God's Angels, to being his mortal enemy? It's all about balance. God cannot be so good without something evil to balance the scales. So Lucifer was chosen, perhaps as a bit of irony to a monk with a sense of humor considering the name meanings, to be God's everlasting foe until Doomsday. Lucifer was cast out of heaven to make God look good.

Pardon me for speaking with a serpent's tongue here having too much 'Sympathy for the Devil' but I was always interested in the tragic characters in stories and Lucifer is no exception.

[Anniexo]

Oi vey a religious debate....Well I'll take my crack at it. -cracks knuckles-

I'd like to say first off that I had 12 years of a Catholic Education. I have literally read the bible from cover to cover and it is full of propaganda that you wouldn't believe. The book is written by men for men in "the name{only} of God" to convert "infidels to the light".

God has so much blood on his hands that he makes Lucifer look like a boy scout. Wars have been fought in God's name predating the Crusades. Back during the days of the Church's "convert or die a painful death" days. How would the Christians feel if, for example, the Muslims came in and did the same thing to us? Making the Christians convert to Islam or killing us?

Maybe you'd understand the Pagans who died a little better.

And as for Hell being one giant pit where a humanist/philospher would be grouped in with Hitler, I see Hell as more of how Dante Algheri wrote it in the Inferno. With many levels according to the sin. Philosphers such as Aristotle and Plato were kept in almost a Edenesque garden as their only sin was not being baptized/living before Jesus came.

And if God is all forgiving, why is there a need for a Hell? Aside to contain Lucifer and the angels that sided with him? Is it the stories of the Boogeyman or Santa Claus all over again? 'Jimmy, don't say that or you're going to Hell.' 'Johnny, don't play that game or you're going to hell.' Sorry to compare Hell to Santa Claus but it is the same principle employed by the Church to get us to behave.

And how did Lucifer {whose name means "Bringer of Light" or "Morning Star" } go from the most favored of God's Angels, to being his mortal enemy? It's all about balance. God cannot be so good without something evil to balance the scales. So Lucifer was chosen, perhaps as a bit of irony to a monk with a sense of humor considering the name meanings, to be God's everlasting foe until Doomsday. Lucifer was cast out of heaven to make God look good.

Pardon me for speaking with a serpent's tongue here having too much 'Sympathy for the Devil' but I was always interested in the tragic characters in stories and Lucifer is no exception.

Nice I see where you're coming from, IMO God like everyone on this earth is both good and bad, since it's kinda impossable to be both since what is good for some person, like giving blood is bad for another, this is what people need to think about, no one is pure good or evil no matter what they do.

[Spitfire]

Nice I see where you're coming from, IMO God like everyone on this earth is both good and bad, since it's kinda impossable to be both since what is good for some person, like giving blood is bad for another, this is what people need to think about, no one is pure good or evil no matter what they do.

Its true that no one is pure good or evil, actually by christian fundamentals, we are all evil, what seperates the evil from the not so evil is whether you have accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. Now people can live a good and whole some life, but by the mere fact that we are alive, states that we are sinners in god's eyes, its believing and working through god that those sins can be overlooked

[Anniexo]

But then we have to think about other religions who have there own god/s surely, they don't do not sin for beleiving in there own god/s. I don't mean to be mead or rude to anyone who is religision but I think it would be better if religion wasn't real, because think about how better people could get on if there wasn't, but that will never happen so I'll just have to live with that

[Spitfire]

That is true that the world would be better without religion, just look at the blood that has been spilled in the name of any god, as long as there has been a god there has been killing in his name. But also people need a place to turn to when the world may turn its back on them. I have seen my friends have that happen to them to and it has brought them great happiness, I tried to understand it but the logic never worked out. But people do need the safety of religion, like a security blanket almost.(If you are offened at all I am deeply sorry this may come off insulting to some people, I mean no offense by it at all.)

[Anniexo]

That's right, but I think people need to be more open minded, but again I won't be getting that anytime soon. But really we should listen to what other people beleive in even if we don't like it

[Spitfire]

True there are some religions that feel that it is there way or no way. And we all know that person that is the same way. This is something that our society has to deal with, and that may bring the downfall to everything, the world could end in what can be solved by just excepting people have different views.

[8730]

im agnostic. i think that the idea of religion with the morals codes, the comfort/support and unity are all well and good. but i think any of the good has long since been destroyed by humans. also, i believe that God cannot be omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscent all at the same time. there would be no suffering then. i havnt seen anthing, or at least very little, to make me think that there is an all-powerfull, caring being that is looking after us.
religion just annoys me, and people who take it too seriously annoy me as well. im fine with people having religion, as long as they dont harm anyone else in the process. unfortunately, it doesnt work that way

[AkuseruVIII]

I see lots of "blood spilt in gods name" stuff but honestly if it weren't god it would be something else, race, culture it's happened all before. So, not that i believe in God as in the big man. I see it as a manifestation of our collective unconsciousness. We need some reason to do stuff it's not like we'd love to toil our lives away to end up nothing. so it is something of a childish fantasy I'm afraid. Don't get me wrong believe what you want you go to your heaven or hell of self-contradictions and brain-washing or whatever but just remember not everyone will agree with all you believe. And it is possible that I'm entirely wrong I've been know to be, but so might you. As an after thought I do believe there is something driving the universe but in my eyes(with about 20/40 vision) I see it as a scientifically based force so I guess you could say I believe god is scientifically based. I'm rambling, OK no one kill me and/or stalk me. I live in an undersea utopia off the coast of Madagascar the bearings of whitch I'm not at liberty to discuss.

[SquishyZ3ro]

Honestly, the whole point of Christianity is that you cannot prove it nor disprove it. Not matter how much evidence you have that something else created the universe, there's always an opening, a singular possibility that it was God. Christians are meant to rely on faith, not science, to prove to themselves and others that God exists. If a person's faith can be swayed just because some old guy who knows alot of big words says there was evidence that apparently leads to us coming from monkies, I pity them.

Now, onto the whole idea that God cannot be Omnipotent. You say he cannot lift an unliftable rock, because then it wouldn't be unliftable. That's not entirely true. To men and mortals the rock is unliftable, but God is a whole other being, a whole other part of existance, that completely annihilates the barriers we humans have set up and named "Science" and "Physics". The idea of a God is that we, as humans, can do no more but praise and worship him. There is no hope to fully or even partially understand him.

Now, some people may question why God would create humans, a creature that can sin and break all the rules set forth by God. I believe this is where the phrase "God is a boy with a magnifying glass" comes into play. God created us, because he wanted to. There is no grander purpose other than to allow us to live. He is God, he does not require anything nor does he need to have some perfect beings roaming about. He will exist for all eternity and can do whatever he damn well pleases. Heh. Honestly, I don't think God would need any reason whatsoever for creating us. Who are we to judge him?

Bottomline, even if there isn't a God, it doesn't hurt to believe. If you believe and there is no God, you won't know the difference when you die. But if there is a God and you don't believe, you rot and burn in hell for the rest of forever...

[8730]

but i thought that god could never 'want' as such. and i dont get how people say that when someone dies and goes to heaven they are going to a better place. surely if god was so benevolent and caring he would skip the earth part and we would all live in heaven, he would not put us on earth with the chance to sin? or am i completely wrong, i hate when i say something based on something false so feel free to correct me

[SquishyZ3ro]

Technically we're at fault for having to go through sin and hardship. Thank Adam and Eve. >.> I imagine most know the story, but I'll give the short version.

God told them not to eat of the tree, they ended up being tempted by Satan and ate. They gained the knowledge that they were naked, that there was sin, and as punishment God put them on Earth, out of Paradise, and made them work and wear clothing. Etc. etc. etc...

[Laurence_Fox]

I remember in High School my English teacher had us read the creation story of the Greeks and then compare it to the Christian one. The wording was different but the meaning behind it was THE SAME.

I know Christianity has "borrowed" elements from the other "Pagan" religions. Take for example the death and ressurection of Jesus. In the Egyption Pantheon, Osiris in murdered by his brother Set. Isis finds the parts of her husband and restores him to life.

The Sun God Ra also dies and is born again with the cycle of the sun.

And the Greek God of Wine, Dionysis was also dismembered and then ressurected.

Different stories, same principles.

And what of the image of Lucifer we all are familiar with? The goat legged Devil with horns? None other than Pan, a Saytr and a rather mischevious one.

And how about God depicted as a wizened old man? You could look to the Greeks/Romans in the depiction of Zeus/Jupiter or to the Norse for Odin

We get our version of the firey pit of Hell from the Romans again but they called it 'Tartarus'. Heaven was the "Elysion Fields" where war heros and the virtuous went. Hades dwelt in the center in his palace.

[SquishyZ3ro]

Actually, Satan was described as a handsome, young-looking angel. Then again describe as having 9 heads or 9 hearts or some such thing like that. I'm not actually sure where the goat thing came from, or if it's even in the bible.

The way I explain the rest of that is simple; they were all talking about the same thing. But the bible supposedly uses God's own descriptions, in order to clear up any misconceptions. I also imagine many of the "Gods" could be likened to Angels from the bible. I'll go into more detail when I'm less tired.

[White_Rook]

The interesting thing about the bible is, is that the largest part that goes in depth on the devil, etc. (Revelations) is just an allegorical reference to the Roman Empire. John wasn't even the writer's real name.

Anyway, it seems rather hard for me to accept, even if such a thing exists, a being that is omni-benevolent, omnipotent, all-loving, and omniscient, especially if we're going by the bible's standards. God seems very irrational in my opinion. The only thing I ever really liked out of Christianity was Jesus, he was cool and gave everyone the real answer to end all suffering in life: just be cool with each other and spread the love. It's a pity very few people actually listened to him. Christ had it down, but the prganization of it all just screwed with the ideals. I'll take the here and now over any uncertain place any day.

[8730]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot i used this in the evolution thread but it works just as well here

[Bariyou]

Now, #3. and #1. According to the "Holy" Bible, all those who do not submit themselves to God will have eternal punishment in Hell. Let's take ME for example. I am atheist, yet I am a philosopher. I am a humanist. Is it right to put me, one who has done nothing wrong, in the same place as Hitler? I do not see that as kind, let alone omnibenevolent.

Wrong, the Bible states, I believe somewhere in ACT, I'm not sure. It's been a while, honestly, that entrance into heaven is NOT based on belief. In fact, Jesus himself says that you do NOT have to believe in God, nor do you have to turn to Christianity to be permitted entrance.
Instead, it is based on what you've done as a person. IE: Good versus Bad choices in life. Also, cleansing of sin does NOT require prayer to God, but a deep sense of regret for doing it.

As in, if I lie to spare someone's feelings, I'll still feel bad about lying to them. Thus, my sins are wiped clean, according to the Bible, and all without prayer.

Note, I AM Atheist, but this just tends to be one of the most common arguments, that everyone misses.

Also, if you look at the Bible as a literature text, Lucifer's intentions are only good. His place in Hell does not actually make him evil, as God created it, and all of its rules. Lucifer, to be honest, tried to give man knowledge, tells him what he wants, and lets man know that his impulses are not wrong. Lucifer is more a humanist than anything, honestly.
Also, something that came to mind, was that Adam and Eve gained what knowledge they did from a BITE of the apple. What knowledge would they have gained from eating the apple entirely? Makes you wonder whether God forbid it for them, or for himself.

In any case, I'm also going to say that I have nothing against religion, and many people envision Atheists as Anti-God. (AKA, GOTHS!) Religion has its good points, first and foremost providing guidelines for basic life (no killing, no stealing, no cheating) and it does give people a reason to do good, who would otherwise do wrong. Some people look to it for guidance, and others (myself being one) don't. I compare God to the Greek Gods, as they are the same in principle.

[iwantedtoexplode]

I really don't feel like making people angry today, so let me just say that I am just throwing ideas around, and that I don't believe very strongly in ALL of what I say.

First off, let me tell you MY position...I believe in a higher power, but not nessesarily a "God," "Devil," "Heaven," and "Hell."

My biggest beef with Christianity is that it claims to be based on faith, but this couldn't be much further from the truth. Many people are scared into having this so-called "faith." I believe that if you truly DO have faith, then a consequence is not required if you don't.

I'm not very knowledgable in the subject of Christianity, but I think this is a pretty good point: In the medieval times, when a question had an unknown answer, people would often make up a story to solve it. This could quite possibly be the start of Christianity.

Sorry if that was a bit off-topic.

[JedininjaZC]

Hell was made for the devil and his 2 demons. Satin then made us sinners, meaning that we would go to hell for our sins.
So God sent Jesus down to die on the cross for you and every person in the world's sins. Jesus carried that cross while being wiped to death up a hill, they then hammered nails into both of his hands and feet, an he was crucified next to two robbers, one the left and one on the right, he had barley any cloths on Jesus was spited at, wipped, people threw stuff at him, he was mocked, had crown of thorns driven threw his head, and he had to deal with it for 9 hours! He could have plagued them all in a second!!!

But he didn’t because when he carried that cross, when he was tortured beyond belief, he died for you!!!! And not just for you, but for everyone in the world!!! Because he loves all life!!
All you have to do is believe in him, believe that God is real, and you will saved from the lake of fire. All you have to do is believe and say that you wished to be saved, that you are a sinner. That is all you have to do!!

John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Mirai]

Hell was made for the devil and his 2 demons. Satin then made us sinners, meaning that we would go to hell for our sins.
So God sent Jesus down to die on the cross for you and every person in the world's sins. Jesus carried that cross while being wiped to death up a hill, they then hammered nails into both of his hands and feet, an he was crucified next to two robbers, one the left and one on the right, he had barley any cloths on Jesus was spited at, wipped, people threw stuff at him, he was mocked, had crown of thorns driven threw his head, and he had to deal with it for 9 hours! He could have plagued them all in a second!!!

But he didn’t because when he carried that cross, when he was tortured beyond belief, he died for you!!!! And not just for you, but for everyone in the world!!! Because he loves all life!!
All you have to do is believe in him, believe that God is real, and you will saved from the lake of fire. All you have to do is believe and say that you wished to be saved, that you are a sinner. That is all you have to do!!

John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

YOu posted this in the evolution topic. Please, if you want to talk about salvation, go to my new thread.

[JedininjaZC]

YOu posted this in the evolution topic. Please, if you want to talk about salvation, go to my new thread.
were is it?

[Repliku]

Now, then. I think I'll kick off the first thread in the debate subforum.

Personally, I do not think that the fundamentalist version of any God can exist, according to what the world is.

First, let us define what the fundamentalist version of the Christian God is, since it's the only one I'm familiar with.

1) MUST be and do EXACLTY what the Bible says. All literal.
2) Omnipotent.
3) Omnibenevolent.
4) Omniscient
5) Infallible


1. Must Exactly do what the Bible says and take everything to mean what it says - Considering the Bible was written many years ago, whether 'divinely inspired' or not, there are still many grievous errors that cannot stand up to today. This is not to say God exists or doesn't exist, but if these people were not able to write concepts, it's because their minds are from their times. I note other such writings came from people that were 'divinely inspired' but other religious people of many other religions do not have such a time seeing the errors for what they are. God, as with Vishnu, Ra etc are beings that humans aren't going to all just comprehend. I do not still get why people cannot use the real name given to God instead of using this title and find it disrespectful to all other religions who have their own 'Gods'. But that was the point any way. Following the book exactly seems an impossibility, but some fundies really make every attempt, even if they fail to follow their 10 Commandments to follow some other order in there.

2. Omnipotent - God to Christians is some male deity that reigns above everything and can do whatever he wants. As a Buddhist, I'm not fair to judge that this is right or wrong, but until there's proof, I disbelieve. What I do not know, I do not know and I can leave something to question. It seems zealot Christians cannot so all of the answers are in this book so no one ever has to ask anything. However, I will say that nothing is omnipotent. It may be very well past me and my capability, but nothing is on top forever.

3. Omni-benevolent - Not. People seem to think that God after Jesus came is all forgiving for everything. The only way he is forgiving is if you get down on hands and knees and beg for it, admit you are slime and not worthy, and give up your life to this cause. Nature is not like that. Life is not like that. I can feel the creative and destructive natures around me of life and know it is not 'good or evil'. It just is. That is how humans mostly are too. To be benevolent means you are giving and caring for others. If this fundamentalist God cared so much about people, he would love them as they are. Sure, we may now need a kick in the bum to get us to do what is more positive and less destructive to others, but at the same time, adversity is a plus. Also, I find that we are supposed to suffer for sins we never did ourselves and beg for forgiveness. In life you do not carry the responsibility of what your forefathers and mothers did. You condone for your own crimes. I do not believe in sin at all. A sin is against a deity. A wrong doing, crime, action etc is done against those we know it affects.

4. Omniscient - If God truly is omniscient, I do not get how we can suffer for things he knew would happen and yet did nothing to prevent. The whole Adam and Eve thing stinks. It's like putting a piece of candy in front of a 3 year old and leaving it there and then an uncle of the kid comes by and says 'Here, take it. You know you want it'. What kid after a bit of convincing from an 'adult' won't take it even if they know you had set it out for yourself to enjoy after you came back from your jaunt to the rest room? If God is truly omniscient, then he cannot be omni-benevolent. There is no way. He has to be one or the other because if he's omniscient, he planned and made strategies for all these contingencies that the devil did as well as what humans did.

5. Infallible - If God is infallible, he planned on us suffering, planned on this war with Satan, and planned on us all dying etc. Again, he cannot be omni-benevolent if that is the case. Also, infallibility is in the eye of the beholder. Letting humans use his name as a reason to stem off the worst bloodsheds ever in history certainly seems to me like he has some faults.

By the way, the "Thou shalt not Kill" is really "Thou shalt not Murder". Christians changed this with the later versions of the bible. The difference is that if God tells you to 'kill' it's fine. If he does not, it is murder.

Also, Jesus died very painfully, sure. However, there are also martyrs of places that suffered just as much, if not more. They don't get this special treatment. There are people even today that get beaten on, raped, harmed greatly and die and you won't hear about them because they aren't as important. He suffered, but his pain is not the worst of everyone's.

And again, why should someone say they believe in someone they do not to avoid a Hell we also do not believe in? There is no proof of Hell. Hell was clearly stolen from various religions that have places of the dead, including the Egyptians and amplified by the Norse, Greek/Roman and Celtic beliefs. Every holiday the Christians have is a claimed holiday of a former religion, just absorbed into Christianity to make people celebrate a day they already had but for a new reason. Seriously, investigate it sometime. I find it amusing that fundamentalist Christians go out of their way to cancel out or absorb every religious other person there is and yet from the beginning, Jews and Muslims are not even sure that Jesus actually even lived, and their beliefs predate it.

Fundamentalist God to me cannot exist. There is a force of life and death, and stuff I can say I feel, but I definitely cannot identify it as this deity and do not feel really it is any deity at all. Perhaps it is, but since I do not know, again, I can leave a question open-ended and do not need a book to tell me what it is to comfort me because I'm not afraid of death or living.