Btw, I'm gonna get Bootcamp up and running before the end of the tonight, so I'm gonna see if I can get SSB64 working soon. ;D Sorry, can you elaborate? Maybe Final Destination? o.o?
YouTube, really. =o MLG is shown on TV whenever the event happens. I'm not quite sure when they showcase Melee, but they did cover MLG New York and MLG Dallas last year. I believe Darky posted a video from one of the New York matches, the one Ken lost to PCChris. :3 But yeah, there are a whole bunch of MLG vids on youtube, and other international ones like Jack Garden (which is hosted in Japan). XD Well yeah, I don't see anyone saying a comment like that either, but I'm assuming what Moodkip meant was it would be a shame if he couldn't play on that stage if it's banned from tourneys (be it because he likes the stage, or whatever). Really? All the Samus locals here use it (at least at the local tourneys I've done here). =o DBR's Mikenasty uses it too, if I recall correctly (even though I'm not really a big fan of DBR).
I've seen that image, actually. Yellow is partial neutrality, and you should know how rarely those are included (talking national/international); they're more discretionary than anything, and up to the whim of the hoster. Only the green ones are most commonly used on the tourney scene. And note, I said 'most common' in my earlier post. 16 may by definition be legal, but in actual application, you're looking at 6-8. For one, MLG doesn't include any of the yellow stages (except Kongo Jungle 64), other than friendlies.
Story of many. :\ I actually don't know how do it myself. A friend explained the technique to me (something about down+b and hitting a direction on a specific frame (40 something)--or was it a wavedash instead of a direction..?) Anyway, yeah, I don't know how to do it, but it can be easily googled if you're interested. 16 is a bit of a stretch. The most common number is more like 6-8. Tourney legal stages varied between 6-8 depending on where you were competing and who was hosting it, but the most common tourney legal stages in Melee are: Final Destination (Singles/Doubles) Battlefield (Singles/Doubles) Fountain of Dreams (Singles only) Yoshi's Story (Singles/Doubles) Kirby's Dream Land 64 (Singles/Doubles) Pokemon Stadium (Singles/Doubles) Rainbow Cruise (Doubles only) Kongo Jungle 64 (Singles/Doubles) Rarely are any others included. Sometimes I see Mute City selected in the roster, but most of these I saw were during smashfests rather than actual tourneys. EDIT: Moodkip pointed out a something notable. Perhaps the local tourneys where you live are much more inclusive on stages, but I'm pretty sure it's a 6-8 range when you get into national/international tourneys. MLG is definitely 6-8.
XD Pretty interesting stage, more compelling is some of the obscure locations of some of the platforms. And SSB64 online sounds good, however I'd have to get bootcamp (or possibly parallels) running again if I had to give that a go; I'm running an Intel Mac--and despite PJ64 being open source--no one's ported it to Mac OS X as of yet. =\
Yeah, and watch the smash community find a new innovative way to use those techniques, resulting with people complaining again, just about something else this time. lol. That's just the culture of a lot of online gaming, anyway. There are always people who discover something specific and completely transform it in a way that produces exceptional results. Human ingenuity, go figure.
I suppose you're right. *sigh* Have to bite the bullet for the Smash community, I guess. <.<; It would've been *nice* to have the option to duke it out with some other advanced players, though. *tear*
Nope, never done that. It's easy to tell who can and can't. And I've responded as such. I'm actually quite a adamant sandbagger. Besides, players of equal skill will tend to gravitate toward each other, anyway.
But I wouldn't act on that if that wasn't the case. You talk as if every gun-owner is irresponsible.
No, if some opponent came at me with a sword, yet I have a gun, I'd keep the bullets in the weapon and use the gun as if it were a sword. But if someone else came at me with a gun, with the sole intention of firing bullets, I'd respond with the bullets in my own gun. However, everyone is equally capable of bringing in a gun, but either chose not to buy one, or wasn't ready to use one yet.
But could be better. But still there. As far as I can tell, all these techs have done is enhance the structure, not break it.
Yes, but not as effectively if *didn't* use it. The game in itself has combo-ability, but it's enhanced dramatically if you include L-cancels. No, I negated it. You were saying differences in lag animation in character aerials were intended because the tier was supposed to be shaped a certain way. Bowser is *supposed* to be slower than Fox. This *still* holds true even after you compare L-cancels. L-cancels don't readily 'break the balance' that you're trying to imply.
Actually, because of the lack of wavedash in SSB64, the L-cancel was *far* more important in competitive play than it was in Melee. SHFFLs governed pro SSB gameplay. The wavedash actually lessened its impact in Melee. http://youtube.com/watch?v=0fJycz5jJa0 All L-cancelled combos by Isai. Impossible to do without. Actually, if you compare a L-cancelled Bowser BAir to let's say a Fox L-cancelled BAir, there's still a great difference in response time. There are still viable differences in character speeds even after taking L-cancelling into account.
I am part of the Smash audience. And the L-cancel itself isn't what's important, it's the fact that it expands combo-ability by quite a large margin that makes it important. The move itself isn't as beneficial as what it allows you to do. That's why people do it in the first place. Umm.. L-cancels have been around since the original SSB, and carried over to Melee. It was supposed to be in there. The wavedash wasn't.
Both players can't be equally skilled if there's one person who can wavedash and another who can't. Since you seem well-versed in the mechanic, you should know that there's a difference between technical skill and mindgames. Two people can have equal mindgames, but the person with the higher technical skill (person who can wavedash, etc) has a better chance of coming out on top. It's not exploitive if both people had an equally opportunity to learn the same techniques. It just so happened that one person didn't learn it, and the other did. This doesn't make the wavedasher a cheater or an exploiter, it just means he/she has taken time to improve their game. You can hammer down on a wavedash for it being a glitch--even if everyone has the ability to pull it off--but I simply don't consider it exploitive as much as it is just one person putting more effort into their game. That's why you Sandbag, first of all. And once again, to me it's illegitimate to say "I don't have the time to learn a wavedash", because at some point in time, you're playing the game. Why not try playing the game while trying to implement those moves (L-cancel is *not* a technically demanding skill, neither is shorthopping), instead of just staying where you are, if you truly want to improve? If the reason becomes being "It's too hard" or "I shouldn't have to learn that" or "That's cheating", then the reason becomes clear. Well, that there is then a difference in opinion. I look at wavedashing, L-cancelling, etc, as a display of skill, not an exploitation. It takes quite the hand coordination and nimbleness to pull off some of the combos, and that to me, is skill. And I wished to get to that level so I could compete at that level, and I did. No, I didn't spend endless days and nights trying to master them, nor did I commit myself to being a hermit until I learned all of them. All it takes is just experimenting every time you play, try new things, hit the damn L/R button when landing from a short-hop aerial. Do things that you weren't previously doing, but learned what you could be doing to be better. This doesn't demand you to increase the amount of time you spend playing the game as it is *how* you play the game. You make it seem like wavedashing can't be accomplished by everyone, but it can be. And once again, don't blame it on a lack of time, because each time you find yourself playing the game, know that you *could* be learning/practicing how to wavedash, how to L-cancel, how to short-hop, only if you make the effort to when playing. EDIT: As for snaking.. *frown* I'm a snaker, but what's the defense there? It's not like *that* move's a glitch. People naturally find innovative ways to use a system given to them.
That's an insinuation you're making, not a fact. Not every wavedasher looks down upon someone who doesn't. I, for one, don't. But I hate it when the opposite happens, and people say wavedashers, don't have any skill and are 'cheating'. Regardless if there is wavedashing or not, there will always be people looking down upon people who aren't as good as they are (aka, "they're 'noobs"), so accusing wavedashes, etc, for causing a rift in social attitudes is flawed. Bou: It's an analogy. It's a way people effectively communicate to make a point. Get used to it. It happens. Your failure to make the connection between our comparisons to the relevance of this thread warrants a sincere apology from you.
There's where your error is. No one is telling you not to learn wavedashes or L-cancels. No one is holding you back but yourself. It's not like Brawl will become "unplayable" if they left wavedashes in and L-cancels in. In fact, since only a minority of people apparently know these moves, as opposed to the millions who don't, it's completely unjustified to say whenever you log on, you're going to get pummeled by these 'wavedashers'? I'd say based on your statistics, you'd more often fight an opponent who doesn't know how to use any than one who does. Leave the pros/advanced players to their biddings, and leave the rest to theirs. What's so incredibly wrong about that?
Not really, it's just they'll win using primitive means. Winning using wavedashes/L-cancels doesn't make you a bad player. Like how movies can sell millions in the box office, and later turn out only a fraction of them ended up actually liking the movie. Sales charts doesn't accurately reflect who's actually actively playing the game. The people who outlet their enthusiasm for the game do, like you and I talking here on this forum who are talking about the franchise.
Yay for automerge. Anyway, yeah, I remember watching that video shortly after it was uploaded. PCChris isn't my favourite Falco player, but he's definitely one of the most adaptive and innovative smashers out there. PCChris has climbed the ranks despite being relatively new to the pro-level, and I'm sure that's attributed to his very awesome ability to adapt and learn new things. In fact, after New York, Ken spent some time to improve his Falco game (in terms of how to take them out). And don't worry about New York too much. Ken reclaimed his title back from PCChris in Dallas. :P Actually, there is an incredible amount of smashers who know these advanced techniques--Smashboards is filled with them. The difference between those who know them and those who don't are usually the people who compete in tourneys, and those who simply play at home with friends. I think it's incorrect to say these techniques are known by a minority of smashers. Probably missed my edit. I rephrased saying the better player will always win regardless of what techniques there are at one's disposal, however, this basically gimps the advanced players who are capable of more. It's really not as time-demanding to learn these techniques as I feel you're making it out to be. :\ Anything hard takes time to learn, but I don't think that justifies removing it. Sure, you might get pummeled by people at the beginning who know these techniques really well, but let's put it this way: You obviously spend *some* amount of time playing the game. So during those limited amount of times playing, why not try to learn/incorporate/master these techniques during those times that you play, rather than being happy at where you are and not trying to improve? Wavedashing might be a different story, but it's not so hard to try to "press L/R whenever you land from an aerial" every time you play from now on, in my opinion. The amount of time spent only determines how quickly you learn a technique, but actually trying/making an effort to learn them is what will allow you to actually do it. Once again, I don't think it's correct to say only a minority of people know these techniques; *many* of them have been commonplace since SSB (L-cancel, shorthop, waveshine, even). The wavedash has been coined since 2001, and thousands of pro-level participants attend MLG every year for SSBM.
I disagree. You don't have to spend "days and nights" to learn those techniques. I didn't, for one. 15 minutes every now and then in Training Mode can suffice; as long as you keep at it. The amount of time spent to learn something is up to the individual. As long as you don't give up, you can still learn it. The fact of the matter is that if people want to learn something, they'll put the time into learning it, at the pace they want to. It may not come quickly for some, but if they want to learn it, they will persevere until they do. And you are right. Winning games will have been based on the basic tactics of the game, but that's essentially the end of it. The basic tactics. Wavedashing/L-cancels, etc, were all discovered, developed, and applied because people wanted to take the game to the next level, and elevate it to where people who could excel could compete at a level they're capable of. If wavedashing/L-cancels, etc are taken out, it would--as you said--go back to basics. I don't think it's accurate to say it would "even out the playing field" because in reality, all that is doing is giving players who make little to no effort to learn advanced stuff a chance to beat a dedicated (dedicated does not = endless days/nights practicing) pro. It's nothing more than handicapping those who are capable of more, the way I see it. EDIT: lol, I should rephrase that last bit. Saying "chance to beat" makes me suggest what I don't want to. What it comes down to is the idea that the game 'could've' been more advanced for those who know and are used to it, but it ends up not being so. I understand that regardless of what techniques are available, the better player will always win, just it's sad and worth a frown from those of us who have been applying these advanced techniques, because we yearn to continue competing at the level that we're used to. It's a personal sorrow to be held back and forced to play at a more (pardon my exaggeration) "primitive" level of gameplay.
