Have you read the Tao Te Ching? Full of logical conclusions, if many are left to make you ponder the conclusion. The Bible also has many good stories, teachings and ideas. "Love Thy Neighbour", "Treat others as you wish to be treated", The Good Samaritan", etc.
And it is the teacher that is at fault for not teaching the Bible well to children.
It's thousands of years old, the King James edition, which everyone still seems to read, is 400 years old and has become dated in many of its beliefs and ideas in a modern world, of course it has backward logic. But if someone of the modern day can not interpret the words in a good way and teach it well, it is the person's fault.
I wouldn't teach a child science book from 400 years ago or 40 years ago, things are changed too much. Many of the scientific facts that were made 8 years ago have been proven otherwise. The freezing point of water in the last few years was changed to 0.01 or something. Techniques in resuscitation has changed. In 30 years everything I was taught at school will be useless.
The Bible needs to keep up in a modern world. Religion needs to modernise. Many have, as stated in that thread the other week about disrespecting religion, I stated that many seem to ignore the modern Christian of today. They also seem to forget many of the greatest scientists in history were religious and it was their pursuit in god or how His world worked that made them discover some fundamental facts of the world. All people seem to think of are extremists, the KKK, the IRA, Al-Qaeda, religious extremists who use the words for their own means.
Like religion, porn and video games need to modernise in a world where women are the large half of the human race, and are effectively rising in both industries in the west. Japan still has few female games developers, and the porn industry management is still mainly male dominated. Japan needs to modernise. Hell, we all need to modernise. The UK still doesn't have laws in place to regulated alot of problems. And I call us out more than any other country, just maybe not on here.
I' m afraid I haven' t, though I don' t doubt for a second religious books have nice parts. It' s just that, speaking of the bible for instance, that book says I deserve to burn in hell, no matter who your teacher is or how much mental gymnastics (s)he pulls to get around it. If you don' t buy that part, someone else will. Surely you understand why I have a problem with that. I' ve been subjected first hand to the lovey dovey kind of christian upbringing, I won' t expand on it but there are still problems with it.
I watched a debate about sexism in video games yesterday. It' s all in French so I won' t bother linking it, but the overall conclusion is that video games stand out (not just when it comes to sexism) because their stories are often a mean to an end rather than the end itself. Plus the anonimity, avatar relays and competitive nature of the medium make objectification much easier (though we can pick a walking stereotype of the opposite sex and see how it feels). Also, marketing. Need I say more ?
Oh and I forgot, our scool manuals are updated regularly to weed out the obsolete stuff, last time I checked the bible was still praising slavery. As I understand it there are updated bibles out there who did weed out all the twisted/supernatural stuff, safe for the existence of god, but that makes them deistic, not christian.
Believe what you want. If you believe that the bible corrupts, that's up to you. I've seen plenty of people raised in a strictly religious house, and respond like you. The typical responses I've observed when being raised in a religious household are either full belief in the family's beliefs, go along with it but don't believe or totally reject it. Do you dislike being brought up that way? I've been brought up mainly atheist with some Christian morals and such, and i've actively sought out religion and belief since it's mainly been empty from my life. People brought up in a religious household want to find the concrete parts of life in science. It's just how some things go.
Stand out compared to what? I'm not sure quite what you're tryin to say. Though you're right to say that the stories in many games are overlooked, too many companies think it's not crucial and won't even hire a writer till sometime into the development of a game. Rhianna Pratchett talked about this if I remember, you can look her up if you want to read more. Many of the staff at Bioware are women, including the writing teams, and I'd sure they'd have things to say about it.
Sure they're updated, but we were taught wrong information. I still consider Pluto a planet even if it's not classified as such. What we've been taught still lingers with us, even if it's proven wrong. I'm just trying to make the point that we are constantly taught the wrong things but we mainly turn out alright, get corrected as we develop, etc. Thebible is no different to a newspaper most of the time, especially the tabloids. If religion was that bad in the west, we'd be stringing up people who are accused of being witches like they do in Africa. Religion is made by the time, the place and the people.
I've been busy this week, so sorry if I'm not explaining much, i'm just tired.
I don' t resent my parents about it. They never bring up god in any conversation. They sent me to catechism the same way they' d put anything Disney on TV. My father is an atheist and my mum, I' m not even sure she actually believes in God. She only goes to church when my grandma' s around, I suspect my grandma is actually the one who wanted us there. Basically they never gave it much thought. Tldr version : encouraging people to take things on faith is bad teaching in my book, the very definition of irrationality. We should know better by know.
Video games stand out compared to other mediums. Many games are created to be just that, games. Their characters are literally tools, objects. It' s true for every medium, but it' s all the more obvious in video games. One of the people in this debate works for the industry, he said ultimately many decision makers never played any video games in their lives. They' re business man, marketers, they just go for the lowest common denominator as they were taught to.
Oh, if the religious books were clearly presented as fairy tales, food for thought, I' d have zero problem with it. Have at it. But that' s hardly the way they' re presented by religious organisations.
Nah, I' m glad we' re even having the conversation. Every time I bring up religion I hope I won' t be that guy, the one who won' t shut up about it. I' m never quite sure whether you answer out of interest or politeness.
Didn't mean to presume, btw. Apologies.
If life was pure logic, we'd be mechanical, predictable and routine. Emotions, bonds and being social animals makes us more irrational than most creatures. Irrationality leads to art, music, literature, films, tv, games, etc. Having emotions and inner feelings is especially crucial to our development as more complex. Creativity comes from being irrational.
Yeah, that I can agree with from what I've seen. It's changing in the west as time goes by. Japan also has this problem from what I know, but i don't know what their situation on is.
I could say no one should trust corporations, be sceptical, etc, but honestly to me it just comes back to so **** bag people out there in the world. And they seriously need to change for the better for I respect them as an institute.
This week I've just not been in the mood to debate, too many opinions and discussions not enough action to get work done. I hate taking the initiative in situations when people should do the same and not always rely on others. Now I'm just rambling on, blah. To respond to your query, a bit of both. I try to address everyone who has made the effort to talk to me anyway, a discussion just makes it more interesting.
No offense taken. That reminds me of a discussion I had with a new agey guy. He told me "but I don' t understand, you have a lot of imagination and you dig art and stuff", and I was like wtf ? Yeah I like imagining things and escapism but that' s all it is, Imagining something and actually believing something are two different things. As far as I can tell we don' t get to choose our beliefs, we either found something that was evidence enough for us or we didn' t.
Sure, as fascinating as they are our brains are hugely flawed when it comes to logic. Cognitive biases applenty. But my wishes have zero impact on what is or isn' t true. Our beliefs inform our actions and so far science remains the best tool to weed out our biases.
Believing in something is just comforting. Sometimes that's enough. Though asking me about logic and creativity is probably not going tomyield much. Being schizophrenic and in the past being unable to grasp the difference between reality and fantasy means I don't really know what to believe. When your well grounded world is swept from you and you can see things not possible but you believe in, logic takes a back seat to merely trying to figure out where and who you are. Sometimes I look at my hands and I can't fathom that they're my hands, they don't look like my hands move how I believe my hands to move. Thankfully, those moments are brief, if intense.
I kind of 'found religion' because it made as much sense as science did at times. And it was more comforting than the cold harshness of science, with facts and numbers and tests. I believe in a lot of contradictory ideas that still somehow work together, because they do. There are things I see or feel that don't have the appropriate English words to explain, so sometimes they get crossed. But in the end, religion, science, it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're a decent person.
One thing being schizo taught me was that we're all wrong. We claim we know what existence is like, but really we know very little about our universe, galaxy, planet, country, town, or even ourselves. Whether it's through faith which has can be disproven at times, or facts which can be disproved over time, no one knows. As long as you're a decent person, I don't care what you subscribe to.
I can' t really put myself in your shoes on that one. But I do remember that scene at the end of A Gifted Man where Russel Crowe casually asks to one of his university regular something like "is there a tall blond man standing in front of me right now ?".
Yeah, science won' t tell you who you are and what you' re looking for anytime soon. However faith is not a requisite to ponder on those questions. As you said faith is probably essentially a coping mechanism. I just don' t see the appeal in that, I' d rather try to deal with reality on reality' s terms.
Science isn' t about certitudes, certitudes are a red herring. Its basic principle is to constantly try to disprove itself, it' s the only way to make sure we' re not just deluding ourselves. It might not get you to THE truth, but it' ll get you as close to it as you possibly could. That scene with Russel Crowe was an illustration of that.
Yeah, don' t be a dick, but gut empathy aside how would you go about telling who is a dick ?
Seen the film. It's... pretty good. The accuracy of real life is debatable, then again schizophrenia can be made up of many different symptoms. If memory serves, he suffered delusions of grandeur and persecution along with visual hallucinations.
Reality is boring, fantasy lets you do, be, see, feel, think anything. You know the appeal of that, obviously. The reality we are born into is hard compared to the one we can create, some people want the easier one. I can understand that, hell I lived in it for long enough. Or I could even be living in it now, for what's worth of my perception of reality. We all live in our own worlds, looking out like fish in bowls. We're never in someone else's reality, never able to tell how the world looks from their mind. After doubts of my own reality, anyone has the same credibility to view the world how they like.
I suppose that's true, but why ever look for the closest thing too the truth if it's got the same validity as the furthest thing from the truth. The world is what you make it.
Hmm, how to classify a dick... I do it out of instinct and individual assessment more than have a criteria. Behaviour and perception of life and treatment of others are big factors. Enjoying the discomfort of others, inflicting pain on them to get a rise, basically any purposeful serial troll, is a dick. A boss who overworks and abuses the professionalism of their employees, is a dick. Thinking you're better than others, boasting over minor successes and thinking you have no faults, is a dick.
A few examples, there are many more. Problem with many people is they know what they want but can't express it, so I don't always know how to describe a dick but I know one when I see it. I have to keep telling myself I'm not talking about penises.
Still, I have a number of friends who are dicks, insult me for laughs, left me hanging, but under all that they've been faithful and when needed, good people. Plus they're entertaining and they challenge my humour and thoughts to be better. They're decent on a certain level.
The penis thing crossed my mind too XD. What I was trying to point out is that you' re preaching absolute relativism on one hand and don' t like dicks on the other. Sounds like cognitive dissonance, which you already admitted to.
You mentionned people aren' t murdered in the name of religion here. Sure. But just because we don' t have it as bad here doesn' t mean it' s not a problem at all. For instance when we were talking about legalizing gay marriage the people against it were just spewing fallacies. Once exposed for what they are their reaction was often don' t care, still don' t like it, works for me. I don' t know about you, but that kind of conversation stopper is infuriating to me.
We CAN know stuff (aren' t you using a computer right now ?), and we CAN apply logic to tell whose moral is the worst (i.e. who' s the dick). Relativist talk is just a stonewaller. If you were buying it you wouldn' t bother trying to improve video games, you' d just go meh to each his own.
I'm preaching? I'm not trying to convert anyone, just express myself in the best way I know. It's handy you're giving these terms for me to look up. Suppose i have cognitive dissonance, but I rarely find it a stress or anxiety thing. I suppose if i over thought it, my mind would turn to ****. My resoning is on a situational basis, one idea might work in this scenario better than another.
Still i'd argue that i might see someone as a dick, but they might be married, obviously meaning not everyone sees the same person as i do.
Of course, i get that things are still needed here, i'm just saying we've reached a plaeteu of healthier tolerance and understanding in more developed and educated places. Europe especially promotes freedom of choice more than most places. I can sympathise with your views in countries where the Bible is the basis of modern laws and social views. But in places where atheism is now a quarter of majority in most European countri and ur society revolves around such things, I don't see how religious ideas are such an issue. If the trends keep, half the populations of most countries in the west will be non religious in a bout 10 or so years. I can understand what you mean, but if you can't discuss or try to talk to people about subjects and they want to believe their world view without it being challenged, let them live in their delusions. You can't teach someone who refuses to learn. They'll bone themselves in the long run.
Ah, but then there is the classically question of 'Am I a man dreaming he is a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming he is a man?'. How do I know anything is real or true? Logic is also a bit subjective, and logical conclusions can still be wrong. It's not like absolute logic improves our lives or makes us happier, hell it can do the opposite, i'm depressed by facts of life.
Going back to video games, I want them to improve not purely for representing women more diversely and better, but because I want variety and improvement. I don't want the same stock characters used for women because it's boring and predictable. I read a lot, and many of the most memorable fictional women I can think of are in novels, a medium that constantly pushes itself. Games to me need to do the same, because I enjoy even the slightest innovation. The Last of Us has one of the most memorable female characters i've played. Ultimately Ellie is going to be remembered and revered as a character than a 3D model with big tits, who litter the place. Genuine characters are too rare in games as is. I want more. I'm sometimes lathargic, but I want things to improve.
As i've said, I'm a constant contradiction. But I make it work in the right areas.
By preaching I meant advocating for or something. Probably not the best choice of word, but it wasn' t meant to be a jab.
The stress that comes with cognitive dissonance isn' t necessarilly conscious. Everyone does it, it' s one of the flaws that comes with the way our brains are built.
Yeah, I saw a poll recently, not sure how reliable it was but it said a bit over 50% of Americans believe atheists have no morals. Britain was at 20%, France 15%. Hell, saying god wants this or that in a political argument would amount to career suicide here. My grandma and I aren' t at each other' s throat, don' t worry. ^^
I' m not too worried by solipsism or Zhuangzi' s dilemma. Reality or not I' m stuck here, I might as well be pragmatic about it.
When it comes to video games my priorities lie elsewhere, I want the gameplay to be good first and foremost. If the story' s good too, cherry on the cake. Did you hear its creators are writting a TLoU movie ?
And btw, since it' s somehow related to what we just discussed, what did you think of the ending ? Would you have lied to Ellie ? Would you say it was fair ? I' d like them to make a sequel because I loved the gameplay, but I gotta admit I' d be curious to see that plot point play out.
I think it's a good self contained story. I like sequels, but i'd rather Joel and Ellie be left behind. I think the ending was fairly bold, and perfect pretty much. You could tell the script had been revised a good number of times, deciding what would work, what wouldn't.
Would I have lied? Meh, probably not if I had the choice, but it wasn't my story, it was Joel's really. And Joel's a *******, he said he hung out with a group of raiders to begin with before giving up the life, done terrible things, and pretty much proved it in the end.
I saw the movie think. I don't know much of Neil Druckmann's work apart from Last of Us and Uncharted 2, so I can't tell how good the movie will be, but yeah, I hope it's good. Better yet, I hope it's not a copy paste job of the plot.
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