1st Debate! Existence of Fundamentalist God!

but i thought that god could never 'want' as such. and i dont get how people say that when someone dies and goes to heaven they are going to a better place. surely if god was so benevolent and caring he would skip the earth part and we would all live in heaven, he would not put us on earth with the chance to sin? or am i completely wrong, i hate when i say something based on something false so feel free to correct me

 

Technically we're at fault for having to go through sin and hardship. Thank Adam and Eve. >.> I imagine most know the story, but I'll give the short version.

God told them not to eat of the tree, they ended up being tempted by Satan and ate. They gained the knowledge that they were naked, that there was sin, and as punishment God put them on Earth, out of Paradise, and made them work and wear clothing. Etc. etc. etc...

 

I remember in High School my English teacher had us read the creation story of the Greeks and then compare it to the Christian one. The wording was different but the meaning behind it was THE SAME.

I know Christianity has "borrowed" elements from the other "Pagan" religions. Take for example the death and ressurection of Jesus. In the Egyption Pantheon, Osiris in murdered by his brother Set. Isis finds the parts of her husband and restores him to life.

The Sun God Ra also dies and is born again with the cycle of the sun.

And the Greek God of Wine, Dionysis was also dismembered and then ressurected.

Different stories, same principles.

And what of the image of Lucifer we all are familiar with? The goat legged Devil with horns? None other than Pan, a Saytr and a rather mischevious one.

And how about God depicted as a wizened old man? You could look to the Greeks/Romans in the depiction of Zeus/Jupiter or to the Norse for Odin

We get our version of the firey pit of Hell from the Romans again but they called it 'Tartarus'. Heaven was the "Elysion Fields" where war heros and the virtuous went. Hades dwelt in the center in his palace.

 

Actually, Satan was described as a handsome, young-looking angel. Then again describe as having 9 heads or 9 hearts or some such thing like that. I'm not actually sure where the goat thing came from, or if it's even in the bible.

The way I explain the rest of that is simple; they were all talking about the same thing. But the bible supposedly uses God's own descriptions, in order to clear up any misconceptions. I also imagine many of the "Gods" could be likened to Angels from the bible. I'll go into more detail when I'm less tired.

 

The interesting thing about the bible is, is that the largest part that goes in depth on the devil, etc. (Revelations) is just an allegorical reference to the Roman Empire. John wasn't even the writer's real name.

Anyway, it seems rather hard for me to accept, even if such a thing exists, a being that is omni-benevolent, omnipotent, all-loving, and omniscient, especially if we're going by the bible's standards. God seems very irrational in my opinion. The only thing I ever really liked out of Christianity was Jesus, he was cool and gave everyone the real answer to end all suffering in life: just be cool with each other and spread the love. It's a pity very few people actually listened to him. Christ had it down, but the prganization of it all just screwed with the ideals. I'll take the here and now over any uncertain place any day.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot i used this in the evolution thread but it works just as well here

 

Now, #3. and #1. According to the "Holy" Bible, all those who do not submit themselves to God will have eternal punishment in Hell. Let's take ME for example. I am atheist, yet I am a philosopher. I am a humanist. Is it right to put me, one who has done nothing wrong, in the same place as Hitler? I do not see that as kind, let alone omnibenevolent.

Wrong, the Bible states, I believe somewhere in ACT, I'm not sure. It's been a while, honestly, that entrance into heaven is NOT based on belief. In fact, Jesus himself says that you do NOT have to believe in God, nor do you have to turn to Christianity to be permitted entrance.
Instead, it is based on what you've done as a person. IE: Good versus Bad choices in life. Also, cleansing of sin does NOT require prayer to God, but a deep sense of regret for doing it.

As in, if I lie to spare someone's feelings, I'll still feel bad about lying to them. Thus, my sins are wiped clean, according to the Bible, and all without prayer.

Note, I AM Atheist, but this just tends to be one of the most common arguments, that everyone misses.

Also, if you look at the Bible as a literature text, Lucifer's intentions are only good. His place in Hell does not actually make him evil, as God created it, and all of its rules. Lucifer, to be honest, tried to give man knowledge, tells him what he wants, and lets man know that his impulses are not wrong. Lucifer is more a humanist than anything, honestly.
Also, something that came to mind, was that Adam and Eve gained what knowledge they did from a BITE of the apple. What knowledge would they have gained from eating the apple entirely? Makes you wonder whether God forbid it for them, or for himself.

In any case, I'm also going to say that I have nothing against religion, and many people envision Atheists as Anti-God. (AKA, GOTHS!) Religion has its good points, first and foremost providing guidelines for basic life (no killing, no stealing, no cheating) and it does give people a reason to do good, who would otherwise do wrong. Some people look to it for guidance, and others (myself being one) don't. I compare God to the Greek Gods, as they are the same in principle.

 

Hell was made for the devil and his 2 demons. Satin then made us sinners, meaning that we would go to hell for our sins.
So God sent Jesus down to die on the cross for you and every person in the world's sins. Jesus carried that cross while being wiped to death up a hill, they then hammered nails into both of his hands and feet, an he was crucified next to two robbers, one the left and one on the right, he had barley any cloths on Jesus was spited at, wipped, people threw stuff at him, he was mocked, had crown of thorns driven threw his head, and he had to deal with it for 9 hours! He could have plagued them all in a second!!!

But he didn’t because when he carried that cross, when he was tortured beyond belief, he died for you!!!! And not just for you, but for everyone in the world!!! Because he loves all life!!
All you have to do is believe in him, believe that God is real, and you will saved from the lake of fire. All you have to do is believe and say that you wished to be saved, that you are a sinner. That is all you have to do!!

John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

YOu posted this in the evolution topic. Please, if you want to talk about salvation, go to my new thread.

 

were is it?

 

1. Must Exactly do what the Bible says and take everything to mean what it says - Considering the Bible was written many years ago, whether 'divinely inspired' or not, there are still many grievous errors that cannot stand up to today. This is not to say God exists or doesn't exist, but if these people were not able to write concepts, it's because their minds are from their times. I note other such writings came from people that were 'divinely inspired' but other religious people of many other religions do not have such a time seeing the errors for what they are. God, as with Vishnu, Ra etc are beings that humans aren't going to all just comprehend. I do not still get why people cannot use the real name given to God instead of using this title and find it disrespectful to all other religions who have their own 'Gods'. But that was the point any way. Following the book exactly seems an impossibility, but some fundies really make every attempt, even if they fail to follow their 10 Commandments to follow some other order in there.

2. Omnipotent - God to Christians is some male deity that reigns above everything and can do whatever he wants. As a Buddhist, I'm not fair to judge that this is right or wrong, but until there's proof, I disbelieve. What I do not know, I do not know and I can leave something to question. It seems zealot Christians cannot so all of the answers are in this book so no one ever has to ask anything. However, I will say that nothing is omnipotent. It may be very well past me and my capability, but nothing is on top forever.

3. Omni-benevolent - Not. People seem to think that God after Jesus came is all forgiving for everything. The only way he is forgiving is if you get down on hands and knees and beg for it, admit you are slime and not worthy, and give up your life to this cause. Nature is not like that. Life is not like that. I can feel the creative and destructive natures around me of life and know it is not 'good or evil'. It just is. That is how humans mostly are too. To be benevolent means you are giving and caring for others. If this fundamentalist God cared so much about people, he would love them as they are. Sure, we may now need a kick in the bum to get us to do what is more positive and less destructive to others, but at the same time, adversity is a plus. Also, I find that we are supposed to suffer for sins we never did ourselves and beg for forgiveness. In life you do not carry the responsibility of what your forefathers and mothers did. You condone for your own crimes. I do not believe in sin at all. A sin is against a deity. A wrong doing, crime, action etc is done against those we know it affects.

4. Omniscient - If God truly is omniscient, I do not get how we can suffer for things he knew would happen and yet did nothing to prevent. The whole Adam and Eve thing stinks. It's like putting a piece of candy in front of a 3 year old and leaving it there and then an uncle of the kid comes by and says 'Here, take it. You know you want it'. What kid after a bit of convincing from an 'adult' won't take it even if they know you had set it out for yourself to enjoy after you came back from your jaunt to the rest room? If God is truly omniscient, then he cannot be omni-benevolent. There is no way. He has to be one or the other because if he's omniscient, he planned and made strategies for all these contingencies that the devil did as well as what humans did.

5. Infallible - If God is infallible, he planned on us suffering, planned on this war with Satan, and planned on us all dying etc. Again, he cannot be omni-benevolent if that is the case. Also, infallibility is in the eye of the beholder. Letting humans use his name as a reason to stem off the worst bloodsheds ever in history certainly seems to me like he has some faults.

By the way, the "Thou shalt not Kill" is really "Thou shalt not Murder". Christians changed this with the later versions of the bible. The difference is that if God tells you to 'kill' it's fine. If he does not, it is murder.

Also, Jesus died very painfully, sure. However, there are also martyrs of places that suffered just as much, if not more. They don't get this special treatment. There are people even today that get beaten on, raped, harmed greatly and die and you won't hear about them because they aren't as important. He suffered, but his pain is not the worst of everyone's.

And again, why should someone say they believe in someone they do not to avoid a Hell we also do not believe in? There is no proof of Hell. Hell was clearly stolen from various religions that have places of the dead, including the Egyptians and amplified by the Norse, Greek/Roman and Celtic beliefs. Every holiday the Christians have is a claimed holiday of a former religion, just absorbed into Christianity to make people celebrate a day they already had but for a new reason. Seriously, investigate it sometime. I find it amusing that fundamentalist Christians go out of their way to cancel out or absorb every religious other person there is and yet from the beginning, Jews and Muslims are not even sure that Jesus actually even lived, and their beliefs predate it.

Fundamentalist God to me cannot exist. There is a force of life and death, and stuff I can say I feel, but I definitely cannot identify it as this deity and do not feel really it is any deity at all. Perhaps it is, but since I do not know, again, I can leave a question open-ended and do not need a book to tell me what it is to comfort me because I'm not afraid of death or living.