Birth by Sleep Create the next kingdom hearts enemy (group effort)

No, not at all! :D I like it! I like it a lot!

okay time for evaluation.

1. I like idea letter C. It's a very interesting idea, and it has sparked ideas for desoul names. As both of us have pointed out there are several ways to lose one's sense of self. This is probably one of the most unique things about a desoul, it can be created in many different ways. So how bout this? a desoul's name depends on how someone becomes a desoul.

Dehero would mean for a hero to stray away from the path of good. Demember would be a desoul create when one forgets who they are, in other words their memories have gone away. Desist (resist with a d instead of a r) would be a desoul who was original self was broken, thus their will to fight back has gone away. A desist could be the weakest desoul. then there could desocials; Those who lose their sense of self from not being social. And finally, Deknowns. Deknowns are those who are forgotten by society. That's all I can think of right now.

perhaps Dehero's could be the equivalent of that giant heartless who serves as the first boss in KH1.

So here's the names so far:

Dehero
Demember
Desist
Desocial
Deknown

I have one more name but that falls into number two, therefore, I will discuss it there.

2. It may in fact be more than a rumor that when a person's Heartless and Nobody are defeated, the person comes back to life. however the heartless must beaten before the nobody, for this to work. This means, Xehanort should be back. I like this idea of yours that sometimes the 3 "elements" come back messed up. the name for such a creature could be a Debirth, Deborn, or Devive. I think I like the name Devive best.

3. You are absolutely right here. A desoul can destroy a heart, but not in the way you are thinking. you see, even desoul's rely on the heart's will; they have already lost their own willpower. willpower is among the many features that makes up a heart. so without a will you have an incomplete heart. A desoul's heart is incomplete for they no longer have a will.

This concept, of an incomplete heart, brings about an interesting question. What becomes of incomplete hearts when their body an soul die? can an incomplete heart still return to kingdom hearts? Probably not. Two answers have come into mind for this. the first answer would be that incomplete hearts gather to form an incomplete kingdom hearts. The other answer would be that the heart would die.

Either answer could be the case. It may even be that it is a combination of the two. This would be how it would work. the heart would die, right? but where does a dead heart go? perhaps dead hearts gather together to form a dead KH. It would be the opposite of kh. This could lead into a new villain. An dead KH would perform the same functions as the living Kingdom Hearts. What would happen here is that a dead KH would give birth to undead.... not very kinghearts like though...... but still this could be done in a verity a ways. such as dead hearts seek out dead souls and dead bodies, or dead hearts seek out living souls and living bodies.

but yeah, desouls could mean the death of a heart.

ok I'm done. Your turn to evaluate my ideas. XD

 

How bout this for their aims.

They are individually different. i mean each Desoul has its own aim and own free will.

 

hmm... interesting, we would need to play with that a bit though. there may be some issues with this. as the soul fades so does the mind. this will account for the loss of self. As the mind continues to deteriorate, then it becomes more difficult to keep a set goal in mind. For the most part, I think that most desouls would be more concerned about keeping themselves alive. however there could be an kind of desoul that losses its sense of self from becoming obsessed with a certain goal. those desouls could be the most fearsome, because they won't let nothing stand in their way of obtaining their goal. and as their soul becomes more faded, perhaps they become more powerful. This could be explained because they are nearing the end of their lifespan, so they have become more desperate to obtain their goal.

Now a name for these guys. perhaps Desessive (a play on the word Obsessive). or maybe Delife, those who throw away their life to obtain a goal. I don't know if I like those though.... any other ideas?

Oh! Maybe Desire! Lol the name was one that was already made. Yes I think the name Desire works nicely for this type of Desoul.

 

0. For the sake of those game enough to launch themselves into this discussion of ideas, theories, and scientifical nightmares, I've tried to classify my ideas, sub-ideas, sub-sub-ideas, and so on. You'll notice I number my topics, and then use dashes to clearly separate my ideas.


EDIT : Before starting to flood my ideas, I'll evaluate some of yours (Pezz). This paragraph is written after the rest, and I told myself I mainly worked on one of your ideas, so I figured I'd talk a bit about the rest.

- The Delife/Dessessive/Desire... the one who has thrown away their lives for a goal... this can be interpreted in two ways. Either they gave their life like Xehanort gave away his Heart ; obsessed by something, completely blinded...
...either they purposely sacrificed themselves. Like Sora did, except that we're really talking about death. Maybe like Axel, but he was a Nobody.
So, maybe a Desoul can be born out of this? Because the Heart and Soul expected death, maybe they figured a way around it... maybe we can link this to my Point #4 (later in this post).
- You said you see the Desoul as a flickering candle. How exactly? Meaning that they can die at any moment (the fire is extinguished), and can't avoid an eventual death (the candle melted fully)?
- Living Hearts seek living Bodies and Souls, and dead Hearts seek dead Bodies and Souls. This idea really sparkled my interest... and then followed the rest of my post :)
- What about Desocials and Deknowns? Those who lose their sense of self from not being social/being forgotten by society? First, isn't this really similar? They could easily make only one. Secondly, this has to be a pretty serious social problem... everyone has social problems at some point in their life, and I don't think we're all Desouls. Besides ; if something really horrible keeps happening to someone's social life, I really doubt that that person will lose its sense of self DIRECTLY because of this. It might start hating everything, might become paranoid, might become a Heartless... but I'm not too sure about "not being social". The person really needs to hate society, and nothing else... Could you elaborate this idea?


1. I like the fact that Desouls can be born out of different events, leading to different Desouls. The names you've come up with, by playing on words, is also a really good idea. I think we should still have a few Desouls whose names don't begin by "de", though ; it adds originality.


2. If a person's Heartless is defeated before it's Nobody, then the person should come back... but as you said, if the contrary happens, we might have a problem. If the Heart has been freed before the body, it can come back and join its vessel. But if it hasn't, maybe the body and soul just die/become incomplete... and when the Heartless is defeated, then we could get a Desoul! As I said once, the 3 "elements of life" come back "messed up" ; in this case, the Heart finds a deformed Body and Soul. More on that later.

- This would explain why the Desoul hasn't yet appeared in the games ; we can say that there hasn't been many occurences where the Nobody perished before the Heartless.

- If the Heart is intact, then it can have a "priority" over the Soul and Body. The Soul is fading away, slowly joining the Realm of the Dead, and the Heart's will is the only thing keeping the person alive. And thus, with a deteriorating Heart, and a fading Soul, we get a Desoul. Let's call this " Method "Nobody defeated before Heartless" ".

3. About the incomplete Kingdom Hearts : When Ansem used his ice-cream machine-er... heart encoder to claim Kingdom Hearts as data, I never understood what happened. We can say that either he destroyed KH's will, or at least triggered something which helped the Desouls.

- Speaking of which, how the Kingdom Hearts did Riku get his body back?


4. Or... as you said, having a "dead" Kingdom Hearts... alright, creativity just kicked in. I'll pick up where you left off, and bring the concept of a dead Heart to a whole new level :

When a Desoul feeds on a Heart's will for too long, or when its own Heart fades into darkness, its will shall be lost. In turn, the Heart itself dies, having lost one of its components : will. The dead Hearts gather in another realm, and create a "dead" Kingdom Hearts-like phenomenon.

Anyway, partly based on what you said, this dead Kingdom Hearts could affect the dead. The whole realm of the dead. This could be a new "specie" : the dead ones, those who have only a Soul. No Body, for it remained where they died, and no Heart, because, as strong as it is, it normally can't follow the Soul into the realm of the dead. This... this can be a law of the universe, the law of life.

However, the Desouls have a truly awesome, and terrifying power, for they can violate this law and ultimately shatter it. Since they are the only beings capable of "killing" Hearts, they force the dead Heart to ALSO join the Realm of the Dead. Then, the dead Soul encounters its dead Heart... which can cause terrible consequences.

- They could make a Body out of darkness, just like the Heartless do. And with that, we our second choice of how a Desoul is born. I shall call this " Method "Dead Soul, Dead Heart, Darkness Body" ".


Oh, I think I've got it!

- When the Nobody is defeated first, the body is left alone.

- When the Heartless is then defeated, the Heart is also left alone, unable to live in a soulless body.

- As for the Soul, it's stuck in the Realm of the Dead. But, we can have a Desoul (your name "Devive" comes in really handful here), or even a new specie, appear when... a dead Soul connects to a lone Heart and a lone Body, making a "hybrid" being. How? I'll explain at point 5. Anyhow, we now have a person whose Heart, Soul, and Body come from three dead persons.

- This opens a cool door of possibilities : A more powerful Desoul/"new being" appears when the Heart, Body, and Soul come from TWO dead persons instead of one, i.e. one person gave two elements.

- In extremely, but really extremely rare cases, a DeSoul/"new being" appears when all 3 elements come from the same person. What does it mean?

- A) The person is really powerful. The 3 elements have been separated, then came back together. They all "learned" more about life, and all became much tougher.

- B) The person is really weak and frail. The 3 elements have been separated, but in order to reunite, they suffered and barely survived.

- C) The person, regardless of its new strength, just comes back. Oh wait. Comes back. COMES BACK. We're talking about someone coming back from anything that happened to it. We've never seen, in the KH universe, how a dead person can revive, but now we know.

- And this is what Xehanort/Xemnas/Some new main antagonist is seeking. They either want to revive a lost loved one, or to create an army of extremely powerful soldiers, in order to take over the universe. Or they just want to see how far they can push their research, resulting in chaos.


5. This is basically the continuation of point 4... so, how does a dead Soul emerge from the Realm of the Dead an join its previous Body and Heart?

- One idea is that a Desoul causes this. The Desouls can, as we all are discovering, shatter the laws of nature. So they can open a door to the Realm of the Dead, and allow souls to join the other two elements. Once again, they come back "messed up". This is the third method to creat a Desoul I've thought of today... I get dibs on the name! " Method "Dead Soul, Live Heart and Body" ".

- The problem is that it doesn't explain how this started. We need a Desoul to have more Desouls. We already thought of ways in which a Desoul can, like a vampire, create others, but those ways were always completented by "natural" Desoul births. Using this idea, we'll be forced to say that a particular individual with enormous will/etc has managed to break the laws of nature for the first time, giving birth to the Desoul race.

- Or, a less farfetched idea : The Soul comes from another Desoul (remember, a Desoul has all 3 elements of life). It does not have to be the same Soul which used to live with the Heart and body. As for the Desoul itself, it can be born out of the many ways we've already discussed.
Therefore, the end of point 4 is now possible. A pre-existing Desoul provides a Soul to the dead Body and the lonely Heart. This can happen when :
- A) The Desoul dies, and its elements are scattered.
- B) A very strong Heart senses a Desoul nearby. Determined to remake a living being, it somehow defeats the Desoul and claims its soul. However, it thus leaves another dead body and lonely Heart (the other things coposing a Desoul) lying around.
- C) A really determinated scientist/main antagonist somehow does this. He/she forces the Souls to revive Bodies and Hearts... most likely, in the truly sad and desperate objective that follows : trying, over and over, this nature-defying process until all 3 elements of the person it seeks to revive are reunited. The scientist can find the dead body of its friend, and has to hope that the right Heart comes around when the right Soul is extracted from a Desoul.


6. As for the "dead" Kingdom Hearts... well, the dead Hearts can gather there. But what if the living KH communicates with the dead one? Hearts DO communicate at seemignly faster-than-light speed. And voilà, we now have an explanation as to how the Realm of the Dead is accesible.

- Also, for more romaticised ideas, this explains posthume communication, i.e. speaking with the dead. This happened to Roxas and Axel... Technically Axel is a Nobody, and lacks a Heart, but as long as we can justify a "door" to the Realm of the Dead, posthume communication remains explainable.

7. The dead Kingdom Hearts could have a name with "de" in it. I only have one idea right now... "Despote Hearts". ... ... Well, a "Kingdom" is a way of ruling something, and so is a "Despotism"... the main difference is that Despotism is more centralised on the supremcay of the leader. It is therefore "worse" by most standards. But, is it really worth it? If anyone has better ideas, feel free to help.

8. ??? (I've thought of so many things while writing these, but can't remember them... well, I gotta try and post this dissertation. Hm... only 1904 words? Don't worry, there's still more to come.)


StarSeeker99

P.S. 1 : Thanks for the friend request!

P.S. 2 : I humbly apologize to all KH-Vids users whose computers/brains have exploded trying to display/understand this little Reply...

 

O.O kinda mind boggling here... lol. Well there are some good ideas in there as well as some where you may be pushing things a little to far. Granted you bring up some interesting concepts, but I'll need to sort through all that and see which of them are plausible, and which of them need we need more info on before even considering if it's possible.

Ok, you mentioned a lot about the dead so I'll go into that first.

Death has yet to be touched upon in the Kingdom Hearts Universe, therefore their is little we can say about it. So if we are to go into the topic of death in the Kingdom Hearts universe (I'll refer to it as KHU for now on, much shorter) Then we must first start by trying to define death from what we know. to do this we must also take natural phenomenons into account. So, lets begin with what we know.

the definition of a natural death in KH would be when the soul leaves the body. this leads to the death of the soul and the body. This was stated in either the Ansem reports (AR) or the secret ansem reports (SAR); I forget which one.

What is interesting about this definition is that it never mentions anything about the heart. so what does this mean? Well this definition can be applied to nobodies (nobodies are the soul and body) as well as normal humans (we can also apply this to Desouls). If the rumor, about a person reviving if their heartless is defeated before their nobody, is true, then I would have to say that if the opposite where to happen (nobody before heartless) death would be the outcome. This is going by what we know.

Also going by what we know, we can say that death for a human means their heart returns to KH.

So what becomes of a dead body and soul? well this is where natural phenomenons comes into play. Upon death, A person's body remains behind in the world of the living so that it can rot away back into the earth. The exception for this would be nobodies, but perhaps this is because the nobodies body has already gone through decay (oooooo, There's a good desoul name, but I can't think of way to apply it properly). so the body has been accounted for, but not the soul. well One could presume that since the KHU include Hades' underworld, the soul ends up there, however It may be that each world has their own underworld (I believe that this is more likely the case but perhaps not). Now we have the soul accounted for. This Is only an assumption here. chances are, that the body does remain behind, but nothing absolute can be said about the soul.

Now let's apply this definition of death to the creatures of KH.

Humans - body decays, soul dies and enters the land of the dead, heart returns to KH.

Nobodies - body decays, soul dies and enters the land of the dead.

Heartless - three possibilities here:

1) A weak heart becomes a heartless. the body and soul still live but their location can not be account for with our current knowledge. when the weak heartless is defeated, then it's original self becomes revived.

2) A strong heart becomes a heartless. the body and soul live on but as a nobody. the heartless is defeated, but it is unable to return to its body and soul for they have been given new life. the heart lingers in space. it's corresponding nobody is defeated. The heart is then able to return to it's body and soul. it's original self becomes revived.

3)A strong heart becomes a heartless. the body and soul take on a new life as a nobody. the nobody is defeated. With its new life extinguished, and it's original life still living as heartless, the body and soul instantly die.

I said their were three possibilities for heartless, but if desouls are added to the mix you bring up a forth. This possibility is based on an assumption that hearts choose a suitable body and soul, therefore they can only be combined with a body and soul that is compatible.

considering that KH is contains so many hearts I will also assume that the chances of a heart finding a compatible body and soul, to be born into, are very low. I think that it is safe to presume that each heart has a sort check list of things that it looks for when seeking a body, and one of the things it searches for is a body and soul from a certain world. This list, could account for the different types of heartless. with this all said and done, here comes possibility number 4 (this one would be a rare case).

4) A strong heart becomes a heartless. the body and soul live on but as a nobody. the heartless is defeated, but it is unable to return to its body and soul for they have been given new life. the heart lingers in space awaiting a chance to enter it's compatible body and soul. A nobody is defeated with a body and soul that is a near replica to the one that the heart is searching for. The heart is unable to tell the difference and instinctively combines with the available body and soul. Upon combining with each other, the heart, body and soul, which all work together to maintain one's sense of self, becomes confused.

The results from combining incompatible "elements" is as such. The soul begins to fade while feeding off the heart's strength of will (I like that idea of yours), while The body becomes increasingly deformed as the soul continues to fade (this could be a universal aspect of Desouls. As you fight them they become less human in appearance and increasingly vicious.) This creates a devive, one who loses their sense of self from combining a heart with an incompatible soul and body.

In theory, a desoul created in this fashion, can have a counter part.

for example:

Heart1 combines with body2 and soul2 (while) Heart2 combines with body1 and soul1

Now let's apply this definition of death to the Desouls (I really like the idea of the soul feeding off it's heart's will, so I'll use that for this)

Two possibilities:

1) the desoul extinguishes it's heart's will and in turn the soul fades from existance and the body decays. The heart can not be accounted for with the information we have. But preferably death with an incomplete heart leads the death of the heart. This can account for why desouls are so concerned about staying alive. the heart does not want to die. where the heat goes in this instance would be presumably a dead kingdom hearts, but let not get ahead of ourselves just yet.

2) A desoul is defeated before it's heart's will is extinguished. the soul dies and enters the land of the dead, the body decays, the heart returns to kingdom hearts.

you see desouls are amongst the living. what's more, they are formed when one loses their sense of self. be sure to clearly explain how they lose their sense of self when you come up with ideas for new desouls. I didn't fully understand how this was the case for the ones you thought up.

Going back a bit, decay could be the name of weakest desoul, because they die fast. But I don't know... decay implies death and desouls are alive. I also agree that their should be some desouls that don't have de in front of their name.

for now lets save the topic of death for another time. perhaps when we are done with this one, you can start a new thread for that. after all, it was your idea ;).

Now I don't remember what else you said so I'll have to end this post right here for now. I'll look back on it later cause I have and exam in one of my college courses today and I've been neglecting my studies lol.

 

Ok, sorry about that, all my exams are done. so I'll pick up where I left off. First I think you edit your post since the last time I read it, so I go over that.

Sorry, I suppose this was tad ambiguous of me. see, the prefix De can mean away so I was doing my best to add that into the definition of what each desoul could be.

This kind of situation would be different from when Xehanort threw away his heart. that isn't exactly what I meant by throwing away your life. ok, lets see if I can think of an example. oh I have one, revenge. Revenge can take many forms. In it's worst form, one would completely forget about everything else in their life, they would skip meals, they'll forget about Friends, and even what is ethical. In in worse case, every single action of Someone who seeks revenge would aways be aimed towards accomplishing their goal. They would no longer be themselves. You could say DIZ nearly ended up as a desoul because of revenge, but he came back to his senses.

I suppose that revenge in itself deserves to be a separate case of becoming a desoul. perhaps we can call it Devenge, but this is the closest example of what I meant.

You have a goal. You become obsessed with that goal. you forget about everything that is important to you in order to obtain that goal. this is the basic idea here.

well It's because a Desoul's soul is fading away from existence. and the moment that soul is gone, the Desoul will die since death is when the soul leaves the body. It's like a candle burning away. the flame is slow reaching the end of the line where it is doomed to go out.

Yeah I know, it would be a really interest idea, but I wasn't really planning on building on it, at least not yet. I was just throwing ideas out there. When I thought more deeply on the subject, I realized that bodies are a substance which when dead they decay back into the earth from whence they came. so I'm not sure if that idea was all that legit.

I was thinking more along the lines that a dead head would still seek out living bodies and souls. This would cause a battle between living hearts and non living hearts.

we could say that a dead heart is not as picky about the body and soul it chooses because dead hearts have already lost their sense of self (their will). without their will, perhaps they lack that check list I spoke of (the list of requirements a certain heart has in order to find a compatible body and soul). this being the case, A dead heart would be see any body or soul as being compatible and would flock to the closest available. In turn the amount of living hearts being born into a compatible body and soul would be put to a halt; Thus the battle between living hearts and non living hearts begins.

but this is for another time, we are moving a bit to far ahead of ourselves here. so If you come up with ideas for this, then write them down. We can look it to them when we are done with the desouls (which will probably be soon). When desouls are complete, I'll make a new thread where we can create a game storyline that involves them (That should be fun :D).

I know, they are very similar. I thought that it would be a problem myself but I added them for the sake of it. If If I were to choose between the two I would choose Deknowns (partly because the name is great :D).

Ok, There is only a slight difference between the two.

Desocial - To shun away society, in other words be a loner by choice. This would have to be an extreme case of being unsocial. This would take things to the point where you have absolutely no life whatsoever. To do this one would stay away from anything to do with other living things. they would live by themselves and never leave the house, they would care for no one other than themselves.

If one were to do such a thing for an extended period of time, it would get to the point where the individual would start questioning who they are. they have done nothing with their life and are basically unknown to society. One may even begin to question whether they even have a sense of self. this would create a Desocial.

Deknown - this is kinda the opposite of a Desocial. A Desoul such as this would be shunned away by society. Once again this would be taking things to the extreme. This would also give a person no life whatsoever. Living things would stay away from a person like this and pretend that that person doesn't exist. Basically society would deny the person a chance to have a life, or in other words, the person never had a chance to obtain a sense of self. the person would have to be completely unloved and ignored.

An extended exposure to such a life would make a person feel as if they never existed. They would feel as though no know they exist. That being the case, they may begin to question whether they even exist. They would wonder whether they ever even had a sense of self. this kinda of thinking would create a desoul.

Both of these are similar in a way, but when you get down to it, they really very different.

I agree 100%. I've been thinking, all the names thought up so far deal with ways that a desoul would be created naturally. well There are pure breed heartless, and it has been assumed that the same will hold true for unbirth. these pure breeds have no emblem on them, so perhaps desouls with the de in front of their name are pure breed desouls. these desouls would have no emblem on them. Perhaps the are artifical desouls who are people whose will was broken on purpose. these desoul as well as their victims, would have the desoul emblem on them, and they would have names without de in front of them.

I like your idea on the 3 "elements of life" come back "messed up". However, as I mentioned above, I'm not sure if the way you are think about this can work out. But as mentioned above this idea can still work. I'm sorry, you were the one who came up with the idea and I stole the chance for you to come up with a name. therefore you deserve to name this one. I'll think of another way the name devive could work. perhaps I'll scrap the name and think of something to replace it. sorry again. I kinda got carried away there.

I made a thread about this, but no one ever replied on it. It was about this and many other things. My theories on this topic are very very long and I'm sorry but I don't really want to have to type it up again. This post is long as is.

As for numbers 4 - 7, I basically have already talked about the whole dead thing.

No prob! :)

 

EDIT: So the e-mail I received (and didn't open) while I was typing this Post was because you Posted yourself...
Well, I won't say much now, cuz I'm starting to lack sleep. But you've mentionned another thread, where we'll discuss the storyline. It's an excellent idea ; we should finish soon with the basics of the Desoul.
This will also allow other people to join... I don't know how many want to contribute to this thread after I bombed it with texts longer than the dissertation I handed in the same day.

As for your ideas :

- With the Devenge, we're getting to something. Basically, there's no more arguing here : as long as we lose our sense of self, we become a Desoul. Since we got the basic idea, we can think of how it applies to other feelings.
I suggest we think of every feeling we can, and see how this can obsess someone into becoming a Desoul. *Puts that in To-Do List*.
- Excellent reasoning with the Desocial/Deknown. I can't say much, you've really proved their differences.
- Your pure/breeded Desoul is perfect, and it fits in the game too.
- Eh? You've prevented me from naming what? I can't even remember what you're talking about, so whatever it was, feel free to name it. If anyone got carried away, it was me :)


END OF EDIT

1. Considering the huge amount of things we've thought of, I will take the time to write down the new stuff. I will only get into minor details, until the next point.

* Desoul creation/appearance

- A Desoul is basically someone who lost his sense of self. It still has the Heart, Soul and Body.
- A Desoul could appear when a person's Heartless is defeated, after the Nobody was defeated. Technically, death should occur instead.
- A Desoul could appear when a person's Heartless is defeated, and then another person's Nobody is defeated. The Heart fuses with a "compatible" soul and Body, but not with the originals. This can be called a Devive.

* Desoul death/dissapearance.

- They feed on the Heart's will, and their Soul and Heart slowly fades. The stronger the initial person was, the longer this takes. When they use up all the Heart's will, the Body and Soul die. As for the Heart, we don't know...yet.
- The Desoul is defeated and slain before eating away all the Heart's will. The Body and soul die. The Heart, freed (like from a Heartless) joins Kingdom Hearts.


2. So, you made me go further into an idea I've had... about the "element" mixing. As you said, if we take for granted a Desoul created by Heart1 merging with a compatible Soul2 and Body2... this means that another Heart2 can probably merge with Body1 and Soul1.
But we can apply this at a much larger scale. All three Elements mixing wildly. Thousands of Devive Desouls are born this way... however, a Heart checks certain "requirements" in order to choose a Body and Soul. Following this, two outcomes are possible :

A) All Hearts found a compatible Body and Soul. This means that there aren't any Hearts, Bodies, or Souls that aren't part of a "being". They are all either in humans, Heartless, Nobodies, (Devive) Desouls, or Unbirths. Actually, I'm not sure about Unbirths, because we don't know much about them yet.
This means that the universe reached a certain "perfection"... altough this is more of a paradox, because the "perfection" is caused by Elements randomly associating themselves.

B) Not all Hearts found compatible Souls and Bodies. They are still searching for good matches, but either can't find them, either no one matches anymore. Considering that a Heart can be looking for very specific criteria in its Body and Soul, this is possible.
What does this mean? I don't know yet.


Finally, I really like the idea of "The Heart finds ITS Body and Soul, from the original person."... but we have a problem here! It already does that when a Nobody is defeated after a Heartless! So, for this idea to work, it needs to be in a "scecial" context, where normally the Heart wouldn't find its way back to its corresponding Soul and Body. When we'll restart talking about the Realm of the Dead, we could use this.


Ok, I shall go to sleep now... It's nearly midnight, and I too had an exam today, and had to procrastinate my studies because I had a trillion of other works, projects, labortories, etc. etc. to do...

 

Email? what email.... Did I send you one? I don't recall doing that, oh well.

yup, we are almost there too! all we really need now is to establish the emblem, the basic looks, and maybe a few other things.

I say that the desoul's should resemble humans or a living creature at full health. as the health bar dwindles then the desoul should become more monstrous in appearance. this can represent the dieing soul. as your soul dies, so does your sense of self. therefore you become less humane, or in other words less human in appearance. the strong the desouls heart was, the more human in appearance the desoul should look from the start, and the more monstrous the desoul looks as they become low on health.

I thought that this would be a good idea after considering how the strength of heartless and nobodies is based on their appearance. The heartless (except the fake Ansem) are more monstrous in their appearance if they have strong hearts. for nobodies, the more human they look, the stronger they are.

I find this very interesting for nobodies, because they still have their body. so the question here is why don't they all look as they used to. Well I can only come up with one answer. the body has no defined shape. the shape of the body reflects the self imagine created by the soul and heart. A strong heart has a strong will. A strong will means a strong sense of self. And a strong sense of self makes more of an impression upon the soul. The soul can never truly reflect the hearts sense of self which is why nobodies never look exactly like their true selves. the hearts contains ones memories. memories help make up someone's sense of self. This can explain why nobodies have memories. But back on topic.

If the body's shape is truly dependent one's sense of self, then while you are losing your sense of self, that must mean the body must change in appearance as well. imagine how the boss fights can work out in this situation! multiple parts!

However, being a major in gaming and simulation, I would be concerned about how much processing power, constant transformations take up. too much transformations will lower the frame rate and nobody likes games like that. That being the case, most enemies should take on two looks. one for full health, the other for when their health gets halfway.

Now to think of other basic traits for desouls. next on our list I think should be eye color. Heartless had yellow eyes. this can be explained. The creator of the game, I think his name is Numora or something, stated that when one is exposed to too much darkness, then their eyes turn yellow and their skin darkens.

Nobodies have no eyes. why, I have no clue. The org members are the only ones that have eyes, but considering that the body's shape may be dependent on the your self image, then perhaps org members don't really have eyes. perhaps the eyes are really just part of their self image. if this is the case, then that means that eyes don't lie within the soul either. It would mean eyes lie within the heart. So that would mean one sees with their heart.

If the heart is what contains the eyes, then it would make some sense. Numora stated that the more you envelope yourself in darkness, the more stained your heart becomes. If the eyes are within the heart, then when one's heart is stained, then It would be appropriate to assume that the eyes would be stained as well. the same could be said for one's skin. Since heartless are those who are enveloped by darkness, their skin color should be as dark as it gets.

Now as for unbirths, they have red eyes. all unbirths(seen so far) have red eyes. so what does this mean? well I've made a theory on unbirths in two other threads, so I won't go too deeply into that, basically I said that unbirth are created when all three elements of life are split apart simultaneously. the idea is based off an assumption that birth in the KHU would be when the 3 elements merge into one, so then an unbirth would be the opposite.

going by the assumption that the heart contains ones eyes and skin, then perhaps unbirths have hearts or something like it. But why are their eyes red? Someone on this forum, who's name escapes me, theorized that unbirths are the essence of the heart, that could fit into my theory. but as i said before, whatever the case, unbirths have a heart or something like it. this idea leads me to believe that it is now more likely that unbirths will rely purely on emotions. perhaps that is why the eyes are red.

So what color eyes would the desouls have? perhaps they start as a dark gray and as the soul fades they turn to a light gray. One who is losing their sense of self should have lifeless look to their eyes I think.

I like it! on the to do list it shall go.... which makes a name idea pop into my head, a depressed.

I need to go right now, I'll finish up when I get back.

 

Interesting, I like it. So, they would rely on control? control over and extra piece. a Source. hmm... why does the name triad sound familiar... we may need a different name. let me look it up and see if the name is already in use for something.

Edit: I see... I remember now, the Triad. an underground Chinese society. kinda like the mob. I don't know if the Japanese would use that name for something in a game. perhaps we should add the extra d to the end... but it's up to you. we really don't need to worry about anything. they are in China after all.

maybe we should make a new thread for these guys. Now that I think about it, it may get confusing if we talk about two types of enemies.

Thanks for that, I been lazy about adding to the first post because so many ideas have recently been presented in one post. This makes my job a lot easier. I hope you don't mind if I use it. :)

I feel so stupid for not realizing this myself, lol. :)
That's a great idea! A mass production of Desouls. All ready for shipping!

hmm so you're saying here that all the hearts manage to find a compatible body and soul? hmm... I don't know, if hearts are picky, then I would think that there would be some hearts that are unable to find something to their liking. and I think that the world that the body and soul comes from would play a big part in this.

This sounds a lot more probable. The hearts that can't find a body or soul would end up linger in space. two things may happen: they may stay there forever, or the heart will return to kingdom hearts when their real body and soul dies. these are little details that can wait.

I'm a tad confused here. I'm not exactly sure as to what you are referring to. sorry :(

 

-1. AAAARGH! I'm feeling stupid. I noticed you posted something before me, and read it... halfway. After you answered to Brexen's ideas, for some reason I thought the Post was finished.
So, about the last thing you mentionned, that you didn't understand :
What I meant is, we previously thought about "elements randomly mixing". Hearts find compatible Souls and bodies, etc. I mentionned that an extremely rare event would be the Heart finding ITS ex-Body and ex-Soul. I said that this would be very unlikely. But I may have been wrong :
What happens when a person's Heartless is defeated, then it's Nobody? The Heart returns to its Body and Soul, and the person comes back. ... ... ... ... ... This seems easy... so the Heart finding its ex-body and ex-soul is already a relatively common event.

My idea fails, unless we think of special circumstances. Such as the Nobody being defeated before the Heartless... and then we talk about death, and about the Realm of the Dead, and things get extremely mind-boggling. Therefore, I said that we should leave this discussion for later.


0. About the e-mail
I meant that I received a notification that someone replied to this thread. Hm… maybe I should select “Daily e-mail notification”. Since I’ve joined KH-Vids, I’m receiving e-mails tenfold, and I can’t do anything without being interrupted :)

1. About the Desoul’s appearance

Their body changing as you fight them is the way to go. The concept is very cool, and we must keep it. As you said, they could only have two forms. But I suggest that the stronger Desouls have 3 or 4… and in order to save the game from massive lag, what if we make a lot of “semi-boss” Desouls? The DeHero could count as one of it. Those semi-bosses would be an ordinary enemy, but which is much stronger than most. So strong, that it requires a strategy to be defeated. An example would be the Behemot from KH1… only smaller, and LESS boss-like. Behemot makes my PS2 lag like hell.
Anyway, those Desouls could have 4 form or so. And since they are stronger, they’re also rarer. And, therefore, don’t appear in huge numbers. This could prevent the lag, as I said.


2. About the Desoul’s eyes

As they shift appearance, they eye color changes, as you said. We have four “main” colors : Yellow, Black, Red and White. As they lose their soul, their eyes could either whiten, blacked, or become red. White because you lose something important, red because you become more vicious, and black because you become more evil.
Also, what if their eyes lingered after death, for a second or so? Or at least, what if their eyes shine strongly while the body fades away?

And my last (and best!) idea : As you fight them, their eyes disappear! Imagine a human-looking boss battle like this. No need to argue about the color; their eyes just slowly fade away. Or one after the other.

As for the “healthy” eyes, the debate is still on. I’d say white, because it symbolises the lack of sense of self.


3. Adding information about the DeHero

Our new ideas paved a bright future for the DeHero. I’m still not sure if it should be a semi-boss, or a one-time big boss, however. Maybe we could have a DeHero and a DeSora? One for each kind of boss?
First, I would assume the game’s protagonist is Sora, because it allows a lot of cool features :
The DeHero, like all Desouls, changes his body upon losing health. I imagine it with several bars of health, as a true boss. It could start with a Sora-like appearance… very similar to him, only darker. Fights with one “Keyblade”, which would be a “good” one, such as Oathkeeper.
As you take away some health bars, he would suddenly become darker, and have Red clothes underneath all the darkness surrounding him. Say hello to Valor DeSora. He would be extremely aggressive, and have little to no defensive powers, for he only cares to attack. His Keyblade would morph into… Fatal Crest maybe, and also materialize Way To The Dawn or some dark Keyblade.
Then, he will either become a very dark Final Sora, or an Anti-Sora. Maybe a mix of both. Needless to say, he will be extremely vicious, and evil as all hell. Oblivion would be a good Keyblade to wield (assuming he is not Anti-Sora, because that would mean no Keyblades), because not only is it dark, but its name also represents what the Desoul is about to face should it lose. As for the second Keyblade, it could be… I’m not sure, but Mickey’s key IS from the Realm of Darkness…


4. Feelings that make you a Desoul :
Okay, I mentioned that we should think of every possible feeling, and how abusing it, or perhaps lacking it, can make you a Desoul. So, therefore, you must end up with losing your sense of self.


Here’s a brainstorm, placed in alphabetical order. Also proposed are names for Desouls coming from those feelings. I tried to have the prefix “DE”.
It work really well to write a word with that prefix, and ask Word to give spelling corrections!!
I also tried using the names we already came up with.


Aggression >>> You react so violently that you become unable to show kindness. You lose your SOS (Sense of Self) because you can only reject anything, and everyone will reject you.
Name : While trying to put “DE” and “aggression” together, only “Dagger” comes in mind. But it doesn’t begin with “de”. It’s still cool enough.

Arrogance >>> In your feeling of being superior than others, your SOS could be powerful. But if you realise that maybe the others aren’t as inferior as you think, you will get mixed feelings. You may, for example, be racist, but at the same time, like someone of the hated “race”. So you’ll end up confused, question your beliefs, and probably discover that all your personal beliefs were in fact forced into you by your education, or that you simply aren’t the one believing in them. Your SOS will suffer when you realise that your whole personality is based on lies.
Name : Derogate
DEFINITON : Verb 1) to detract, as from authority, estimation, etc.
2) to stray in character or conduct; degenerate
Maybe “Degenerate” could work as well.

Avarice (is this a feeling?) >>> You want more and more, and you are never satisfied. What can you think of yourself when you are consumed by avarice? Not good thoughts. SOS is gone.
Name : ???

Envy >>> Your mind only focuses on what other have and you don’t. You see yourself as someone who can’t get what it wants, and lose your SOS.
Name : Denvy OR Deserve

Friendship >>> The loss of a good friend, or of many close friends at once, can make you feel unwanted, unappreciated, and useless. Goodbye SOS.
Name : Defriend (wordplay on “befriend”)

Hate >>> You keep an interior anger at everything, and can’t do anything else but hate. Your SOS is centered around a life you can’t enjoy, and you lose it sooner or later.
Name : Despise

Pride >>> A bit more complicated, because being proud should mean that your SOS will shine as you believe in yourself. As always, when a feeling does the contrary of what is needed to become a Desoul, I’m wondering what happens when that feeling is shattered. So, if your pride is destroyed suddenly, you might lose your SOS.
Name : Deprive (wordplay on DE + PRIDE)

Love >>> I’m not sure how a good love story can make you lose your SOS, but a hard break-up can definitely do that. Your heart shattered (figuratively-speaking ; the Kingdom Hearts Universe has yet to explain love), your SOS is sure to be disrupted.
Name : Deloved (wordplay on “beloved”)

Obsession >>> It’s easy to figure out how being blinded can lead to losing your SOS. However, WHAT you’re obsessed about often deserves its own category. Being obsessed with revenge isn’t the same as being obsessed with your research. Still, for anything that doesn’t fit in other categories…
Name : Dessessive (your idea, wordplay on “Obsessive”)

Revenge (the urge to get it) >>> Your thoughts and actions are shrouded by your will to get revenge. Everything is forgotten in the name of revenge. Including the SOS. It was your idea, and you called it…
Name : Devenge

Sadness >>> Your SOS won’t survive if every waking moment of your life is a drama. A person with no joy in life can end up like this.
Name : Depressed

“Sociality” (intentional, as in rejecting others) >>> Your idea, Pezz. When you reject others and end up with no life, you might question who you are, realise you aren’t anyone, and lose your SOS.
Name : Desocial.
Alternatively, being unsocial because others reject you, even if you want to be with them, leads to a different path. You once again question who you are, but realise this time that no one wants you, and your SOS will be lost. Once again your idea.
Name : Deknown.

“Vitality” (being energetic, joyful, etc) >>> When you live your life letting your emotions loose, like what we think an Unbirth does, you may end doing some quite bad stuff. This would lead you to regret many things, question yourself, and lose your SOS to your inability to have controlled yourself.
Name : Delife (this name was already suggested instead of Dessessive, for the Obsession feeling)

***Extra note : A Desoul can also be created when a Heart find a suitable Soul and Body, but which weren’t its original ones. This is the Devive (wordplay on Revive).


Well, that’s it for the moment. I may have missed obvious things, but we got enough ideas for the moment.

 

ahhh, I see. very interesting. hmmm... this may be difficult to do right now. We would really be pushing what we know with this one. The question that comes to mind with this is, "Are a deceased body and soul even accessible after death?" you brought up the idea that perhaps it is when there is a dead kingdom hearts about.

I don't know, this is a very difficult question to answer at this time. I believe each of the 3 elements experience something different from death. we know hearts go to kh, but we can only guess for souls and bodies. Bodies are the vessel, so I assume they are substance. Substance is matter, and matter is reusable. I would assume the body would decay and the matter that makes up the body would return to the earth. so if this is so, then it would be impossible for the heart to return to a ex-body.

For the soul, I think that you are right that they enter the realm of the dead. Currently there are four known realms. Light, Dark, Nothingness, and In-between. light opposes dark, and nothingness oppose in-between. nothingness has been turned away from both light and dark. in-between is obviously both light in dark. So if there is a realm of the dead, then perhaps there is a realm of life or birth. we shall see if birth by sleep will introduce anything like that.

but anyways, if there were a realm of death and birth, then I would have to say that for a heart to fuse with an ex-soul there would have to be a leak in the realm of death. And seeing that Bodies may have no defined shape (though there are probably different types of bodies), A deceased person might be able to be revived if the heart and ex-soul fuse with the right type of body. the question here is, "do any changes happen to a deceased soul?"

But this is all going really far out there. I don't think that a dead kh would open a pathway to the realm of the dead, I think it would be a realm or world in itself. if kh is a realm in itself, then I think a dead kh would be it's opposite. but again, nobody can say for sure.

lol, did you subscribe to this thread? if you did, it gives you an update whenever someone has replied. I've done that to help keep track of this thread.

My thoughts exactly, though 4 forms should be for main bosses 3 for semi-bosses. 4 forms for reoccurring enemies may end up annoying someone. and the less the better, else the transformations will get old.

It's always good to be consistent else things start to get confusing. yellow and red are unfortunately taken, so we must forget about them. the color of the eye should be unnatural. yellow and red and no eyes are unnatural, at least for humans, and can even be considered demonic. I agree with the color white, but I think for it to work, we would need a to consider a counter color for the body. yellow eyes work well with near black body. no eyes works well with white bodies. red eyes work well with dark blue bodies. we need to play around with this. the shape of the eyes might pull everything together. White eyes may still not be the answer here. we should make a few sketches or something, and maybe even do a poll to help get more people involved.

You bring up here something else that I've neglected to think about. how the desouls look when they die. eyes the linger in the air may look a tad silly, but perhaps the body could fade or maybe the desoul turns to dust and blows away into the wind. more thought is needed here.

and last, fading eyes as you fight the desoul is a good idea, but once again consistency must be considered here, as well as enemies overall look. perhaps the eyes could just become more dull in appearance or so. more thought is needed.

or how about we just have the dehero's arms split into two new arms, thus giving him four arms and the ability to wield four keyblades at once.

whether we will use sora for this though must be put aside for later. perhaps we can have the dehero appear as the first boss in the station of awakening. that time he has two forms and wield two keyblades for his second form. And later in the game the dehero appears again but this time going all out with four keyblades. the keyblades themselves should become deformed as well. and perhaps they can float around the desoul in its final phase.

very nice, but I think that Destructive maybe be more fitting for aggression. again, we must consider consistency.

Here is a another one

Deceit: Those whose lives were built on a wall of lies. If that wall of lies were to be shattered, then your SOS would vanish.

Devious would be a good name too for another type of desoul.

SOS, I like it. makes life a lot easier! :D

 

Where exactly do thos epictures come from? Which FF?
Also, they are all humanoid, and can actually all be human. If the Triadd or whatever gains something, could it be that it keeps the human body? Since it does not get killed/turned into a Heartless, etc?

I already thought of something, although it wasn't intended for the DeHero itself : If you have floating Keyblades like Final Sora, you can effectively Quad-Wield by grabbing Keyblades in your now free hands. So we don't really need 4 arms. It must also look cool ; using physical and telepathic powers for the win.

Perfect. That works for me.

Yeah, nice idea. Perhaps they should look duller, becauseof the lack of SOS?

This, as well as the eye color, are subjects that require creativity, and perhaps even artists. So, considering you and I monopolised this thread (I see that besides us, only Brexen gave some ideas recently), I have and idea :

Let's make a Poll! Asking people how they prefer seeing their victims die. It works for Desouls, as well as anything else.
We'd still be in a videogame, so this should not be TOO long or graphically demanding... but on the other hand, if we're thinking of the newer consoles out now, we can allow some more artistic ways of dying.
I suggest we give a few ideas each, so that we find as many awesome ways of vanishing after death. In the Poll, I will then put them, with the option "Other - Please specify". People can help this way, and of course we'll link them to this thread, so that they can help here if they like the Desoul topic.

This would be the 3rd Thread related to the Desouls, so we should put links on the first post of each one's.

 

great idea, but first we should have a few other ideas, at least one more but preferably two. We should probably post it in a different section of the site. I'll look for a more appropriate location.

I like the name. I'm assuming that these guys will be similar to org 13. But lets not get too ahead of ourselves. we need more details and ideas before moving ahead to names and such. We should start with this "Source" what exactly is it? can is it an extra part of life? No, it can't possibly be an extra part of life since life consists of 3 basic elements. Triads would be above life. they would be more than life. In a sense more god like.

that being the case, we can start defining this Source of yours. It can't be something like magic, because normal life forms already can use magic. Considering that they are god-like, I think it would be reasonable to assume that they can manipulate the elements that comprise the universe in a similar fashion to how the org members would manipulate an element.

but instead, they should be able to manipulate elements around them. For example, the can't produce water out of thin air but the can manipulate the water in the environment around them.

If this were to be so, then the Source would refer to matter. Source is what makes up the universe. they have the ability to shape the world.

oh and I too wonder if these guys should maintain their human form. perhaps those with better control can maintain their shape.

So what do you think? does that sound good?

 

Yeah, I'll think of some things, but I'm sorta busy right now... blame physics and chemistry... so maybe later tonight. Damn, my schedule is really messed up right now.

 

Ok, so I decided to do a little sketch for a Desoul in Photoshop. This is the basic look that I thought up. It probably could use some work but I think I did a decent job. This could be the most common form of Desoul. Perhaps we should just give this guy a name that doesn't start with De.

View attachment 2275

lol, thanks! :D

Who's Mike though?

 

About your Desoul sketch :
It's good because it's reminescent of a Shadow, Dusk, weakest Unbirth. It remains consistent as the waekest enemy.
However, purple eyes? It goes nice with the green body, but is purple a color we could keep? It could look as a mix of evilness/emptiness... what do you think?

Also, the thing in its head makes him look a bit like a Pikmin (!)



Okay, I thought of some ways for a enemy to vanish upon death :


1 - Going up in flames (of any color)

2 - Turning to dust that is quickly taken by the wind

3 - Simply vanish quickly (like in the KH games)

4 - Disappearing instantly, during a single frame

5 - Sinking unto the ground, as if you fell through

6 - Melting like a liquid, and “dry†a second later

7 - Evaporating (like the Organisation members)

8 - Dying by the power they control (like Demyx, who becomes a water splash)

9 - Turning into a sort of gas which quickly dissipates

10 - Shattering like glass (Like the monsters from Yu-Gi-Oh)

11 - Levitating and vanishing a second later

12 - Quickly rising towards the sky

13 - Having a “portal†materialize and absorb the enemy (either below or behind it)

14 - Being absorbed into the killer’s weapon

15 - Being absorbed into the killer’s body

16 - Have it’s “Elements of life†(Heart, Soul, Body) visually separate, then vanish

17 - Stay motionless for a few seconds, becoming more and more transparent

18 - Other (please specify)



Finally, about Triad(d)s. Your idea to manipulate elements around them makes them sorta half-able to use magic. Demyx, for example, can produce water out of thin air. If a Triad can't, and can only control pre-existing water, then they don't feel so "god-like"...
So your example wasn't too good, but good idea. "Controlling the shape on the things around it." This means they can control more than Ice, Fire and Thunder.
They can control how bodies are created... because bodies are matter... and maybe, just maybe, A high-ranking Triad makes sure that all bodies "produced" are suitable for specific Hearts they have captured. Thins means that ...
The Tridas would then be those who mass-produces the non-Purebreed Desouls. At least, they could've helped the Pure-Breed Desouls to do so, for they can shape bodies (pre-born, or made with technology) to be suitable for any given Heart.

Ok, Imma gonna stop right here before I get carried away.

 

perhaps a very pale purple would do. let me play with it a bit. the shape of the eyes could also be subject to change to make the eyes look more empty I want to stay away from making these guys too evil, because remember that desouls are not necessarily evil. lol about the pikmin comment. :) I'll fiddle around with it. that was suppose to be like a flame on the end. remember the comparison I made with desouls and flickering candles? I wanted to give them that sort of feel.

Perhaps these little guy should have only one form because they are weak at heart.
As fore the death scene Let's take a poll using

1 - Going up in flames (of any color)

2 - Turning to dust that is quickly taken by the wind

3 - Simply vanish quickly (like in the KH games)

4 - Disappearing instantly, during a single frame

7 - Evaporating (like the Organisation members)

9 - Turning into a sort of gas which quickly dissipates

17 - Stay motionless for a few seconds, becoming more and more transparent

18 - Other (please specify)

lol, yeah good ideas here. I think we should have Brexen here to make sure he's fine with these ideas. I don't want him to feel like the idea was stolen from him. also, we should try to keep the triad(d)s separate from the desouls for now. take note of your ideas for later.

 

For the Triadds, it's ok, I just had that idea. What do you think of it, Brexen?

For the Poll, I would like if we keep the "Get shatterred" death as well. Or are we limited to 8 choices?

For the candle on Desoul thing, it's an original idea. We could keep it.

And pale purple eyes still are cool.

And... that's it for the moment...

 

ok I'll add the shattered death to the poll. Its in the creativity corner. the tags are for the most part the same except that there is an extra one: desoul the name is "KHV users have created the next Kh enemy, Desouls. how does it look when they die?"

Edit: It's not letting me edit the poll :( I added the Shattered glass to the list on the first post so just post the number 8 if you like that the most. I'm sorry, I was a bit hasty there.

 

hmmm... can you go in to more detail? I'm having a difficult time thinking what that could be.

-------

Alright I made a few slight changes to the design. very minor. I'm wondering whether we should make it more flame like by getting rid of 2 fingers on each hand and 2 toes on each foot.
View attachment 2278