Birth by Sleep Create the next kingdom hearts enemy (group effort)

Discussion in 'Kingdom Hearts HD II.5 ReMIX' started by Pezz, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. Pezz Kingdom Keeper

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    hold up, lets see where to start. Yes, the soul does feed off the hearts will to survive. that is the same thing as will. we have been using the terms Will, Will to Survive, and Willpower interchangeably. They all basically refer to the same thing, though each has it's own meaning. So if the desoul feeds on the hearts will, then it is also feeding on willpower and the will to survive. I know that you are having trouble with accessing the wiki, but if you can somehow get to it, read our new FAQs page. Section c is devoted to desouls. Section E is for the Sense of self, though that is subject to change. We are still in the process of defining it.

    Also about the types of desouls, For pure breeds that is determined by how a person loses their sense of self. desouls are, in a sense, "broken" people. people whose will has been "broken". this can happen in a verity of ways, and each way creates a different type of desoul with a name that is based on how they became a desoul. Take Devives for example. Then there are Demembers = memory, Deknown = forgotten by society/denied a social life. there are a lot of pure breed types. as for the emblem/artificial types, we have no names for them yet. emblem desouls still need to be worked on.

    as for the soul and the mind, The soul and the mind are different, but the mind has to be somewhere. Heartless, for the most part, are mindless creatures. they rely on instinct, but nobodies they have minds. they can think and plan. going by that, I would have to say that the mind resides in one of the two elements that makes up nobodies. the body or the soul.

    I think that we can both agree that the body probably doesn't contain the mind. the body is only the vessel and nothing more. that only leaves the soul. so yes the mind and soul are different, but lf you ask me, the mind make up part of the soul.

    For everything else in your post, a lot of it is philosophical concepts without that need more kh facts added to them. Everything about desouls is philosophical, but we went by what was know about KH in order to create them. so from what we discussed, desouls are plausible for an actually kh3 game. use some more kh fact to explain your concepts so we can have a better understanding. then we can consider how to make it work.

    I think that you may be a little confused about desouls here. I don't get what you are try to say about the desoul's base. they don't have a base. what exactly do you mean by base?
     
  2. StarSeeker99 Gummi Ship Junkie

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    Ok, I have a few things to say.

    What I made blue out of your post = I agree. So yes, the Heart must be Magic, the Soul Attack, the Body Defense. I don't think we need more proof for this, because it makes enough sense already. The Body defends the Heart, etc.

    However, in red, I'm not too sure. The Soul fuels the Heart? What do you mean by that? If I understand, it will actually be the opposite, because the Heart gives the Soul power. The Soul, in return, helps Life itself ; helps the union of all Elements.

    My theory follows :

    Since one life = one Soul, I think that the Soul is the one who can use the Heart's power, and transmit it to the Body, allowing you to live.

    The Soul isn't the mind, but they are related. For this reason, the Soul's role in Life is to choose how it uses the Heart's power. Your thinking capacities are in your Soul, thus it determines just how well you can use your Heart's power. What emotions, what memories, what powers will emerge and help you? It all depends on the Soul.

    Think of a Heartless. It doesn't have a Soul (see my next point), so therefore all of the Heart's powers are sent blindly at the Body. A Heartless only acts on instinct, and without the Soul acting as a balance, the Heartless remains weaker than its original self.

    I got pretty far on this ; opinions?



    Then, in orange : Heartless don't have a Soul. It's in the Nobody. I'm not sure about weak-hearted individuals though, who don't create Nobodies. Except that, everything you said is cool.

    Finally, in purple : By "Bases", do you mean the Elements of Life? The Heart, Body and Soul? If so, then they cannot be "opposite" when making a Desoul. An Emblem Desoul is formed when compatible Elements mix. If they aren't, they cannot mix.



    P.S. : Why in the World That Never Was do we call Heartless "Heartless"??? They are EXACTLY the opposite of their name! They are a Heart, alone. Their Body is made out of darkness. Hell, NOBODIES should be called "Heartless".
     
  3. Pezz Kingdom Keeper

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    ok i understand what Brexen was talking about now. the color helped me out a bit for some reason. I think that you, Brexen, are thinking about devive desouls. for devives, they have their elements mixed up. for all other desouls the elements aren't mixed up.
     
  4. Pezz Kingdom Keeper

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    We aren't exactly sure what we want to do with the emblem versions. can you say your idea again?
     
  5. StarSeeker99 Gummi Ship Junkie

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    Hmm... I never thought of it that way. This is interesting. Desouls born out of incompatible Elemements are thus like the heaviest elements in the periodic table : they appear, but the Elements split almost instantaneously.

    Me and Pezz already discussed about something : All Hearts, Bodies and Souls that can't return to their original selves will start mixing wildly to create Desouls. However, eventually, all that will remain will be a few Elements who can't find any compatible counterparts. The rest would've became Desouls.
    With your idea that incompatible Elements can still attempt to mix... We can say that the Elements don't like that. They try to mix, but fail, and thus... feel pain? Become weaker? Or something among those lines. Therefore, they seek compatbile Elements, not only because they want to be whole, not only because it's the laws of physics in the KHU, but also because they want to avoid pain.
    Anyway, this is trivial. Unless someone has an idea that will really add something to the storyline, using this idea, then we might just as well drop it. Otherwise, we'd have to explain what exactly is the pain the Elements feel, etc etc.
     
  6. Pezz Kingdom Keeper

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    Ok, I'm all good with the your idea for the emblem desouls. but about the devines. the name that you are giving them doesn't follow the naming pattern for pure breed desouls.

    this is how we name those guys. first they all have de in front of their names, secondly, their names are based on how they became desouls. if someone loses their SOS because they lost their memory, then we get a demember. If someone loses their SOS because of a lust for revenge, we get a devenge. If an incompatible heart recombines with a body and soul (nobody) then instead of the person reviving, the become a devive.

    devive is a play off the word revive. it really doesn't make sense to call them divines. also, there are very few of this type of desoul because the conditions needed for a devive to be made are very rare. Even so, this type of desoul is very high up there in power.

    ok, I done with that. now I just thought of something. I was just thinking that I can't imagine desouls working together under normal circumstances. Desouls only care about their own survival. to survive longer desouls feed on the will of other people's hearts. That being the case it would be inconvenient for desouls to hunt in packs.

    What I'm getting at is that because of this inconvenience, under normal circumstances desouls wouldn't form any sort of society like that nobodies did. that being the case, there wouldn't be such a thing as high ranking desouls. there are powerful desouls, but none of them have ranks like the nobodies do. The only reason why desouls would work together would be if there was some higher force commanding them to do so.

    We already said that this higher force would be Xehanort, but for that to work we cannot make him a desoul while he commands them. Desouls are broken people. because they are broken, they will obey any commands given to them by anyone who they consider their master, a.k.a the person who broke them. If Xehanort were to become broken too (if he becomes a desoul), then they would see Xehanort as an equal and would therefore see no reason to listen to him anymore even if Xehanort is more powerful then them.

    This makes desouls different from heartless and nobodies. Heartless listen to the ones who are the most powerful. Nobodies listen to higher ranking nobodies. Desouls they only listen to the one who broke their will but only if that person is not a desoul themselves.
     
  7. StarSeeker99 Gummi Ship Junkie

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    Original, but unfortunately inadequate. Think of a devenge. Following your hypothesis, it will only listen to those who broke him ; those who he has sworn revenge upon. That makes little sense.

    Furthermore, many Desouls become what they are because of themselves. Dessessives are an example. No one broke them. So who will they listen to? Xehanort perhaps, but why?

    Also, if Xehanort is to become a Desoul, he too will do so because of himself. If someone else broke his SOS, then I would understand the Desouls following that person. But Xehanort will lose his SOS by himself.


    I have a comeback though. Desouls seek will. But stronger Desouls may well have stronger Hearts, and thus more will left. Because of that, the weaker Desouls could obey them, because, to their eyes, they are an example. An example of someone who is better than them, but still a Desoul.

    I'm afraid that we also need to have at least a little hierarchy among Desouls, otherwise they'll probably attack each other. I'm not sure I get why they won't just jump on one another, since they both have some Will left in their Hearts. Is it because you can eat most of the Heart's Will of an ordinary person, but only the Desoul thus created can really finish eating it?
     
  8. Pezz Kingdom Keeper

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    point taken, but I don't think Xehanort should lose it right away
     
  9. Pezz Kingdom Keeper

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    Ok, I thought up a couple of ideas right now.

    1)

    I have a reason why emblem desouls can specialize in a certain area, such as magic and strength. emblem desouls are artificially created desouls, made by Xehanort. Since Xehanort made them, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that he is able to fiddle around with the desoul's sense of self within any one of the elements of life? He could mess with the heart's SOS and the Soul's SOS in order to make the Body's SOS the highest. because of this, that specific desoul would have a high defense.

    If we do this, then it would mean that the reason that pure breed desouls have balanced stats is because pure breeds SOS is balanced for each element of life.

    2)

    I have a reason why the most common type of desoul, the Ember, is so common. Embers could be victims of any kind of desoul attack. This could be our reason for not have De at the beginning of their names too. If we do this, then that would mean that an Ember's will wasn't broken per se, it was more like sent in disarray. Ember's wouldn't be born from a broken will, therefore they aren't named in the same fashion as other pure breed desouls.


    3)

    Desoul victims who have a strong will should turn in to a stronger form of Ember. We need a name for this type. I was thinking Flare, but I don't like it much. My other idea is Neo-Ember.


    so what do you guys think?
     
  10. Boy Wonder Dark Phoenix in Training

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    It kind of seems...old to make "emblem" enemies, reminds me to much of the Heartless, is there another one way for an "emblem" enemy to be made besides Xehanort making them himself?
    And Neo-Ember is also too Heartless-like in my opinion. Desouls should be more original
     
  11. Pezz Kingdom Keeper

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    true but that might mess with the story line that we already have running. Yeah I agreed. the name for a more powerful Ember must be changed. Maybe Ash or Cinder. those are among the few synonyms for ember

    Edit: If you have an idea for emblem desouls, I would be interested in hearing it. Natural desouls wouldn't have emblems. emblems are man-made, so it would be logical to assume that any desouls with emblem would be artificial.
     
  12. Boy Wonder Dark Phoenix in Training

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    I skimmed the Wiki, maybe one of the other Keybladers end up making the Emblem Desouls themselves to combat Xehanort's army and Xehanort somehow takes control of the Emblemed? I can see the Chaos Keyblader (Blaze?) doing this since in his eyes the end justifies the means.
    Or a phenomenon of some kind affects regular Desouls (like an explosion or something) and changes them, so there's only a fixed number of the Emblemed but that sounds too Unbirthy..

    I'm thinking of all the terms that have to do with fire/candle/etc. but in a small quantity
    Ember
    Blaze (already used)
    Flare
    Spark
    Melt
    Fuse
    Heat
    Solar
    Match
    Fuel
    Bright
    Spreader (like Forest fire)
    Some of those defintely wouldn't work but maybe someone will get an idea for a name from one of these.
     
  13. Pezz Kingdom Keeper

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    Hmm I like it! I like it a lot! but Choas/Blaze wouldn't do that. He represents Choas because his methods disrupt the world Order. On the other hand, I could see Turpis/Corruption doing such a thing. He seeks power to use it for "Good" He could have created the desouls to rid the worlds of heartless, but the situation could have gotten out of control. Very good idea! A+ for you!

    Edit: I just had a good idea for a name. how about Torch?
     
  14. Boy Wonder Dark Phoenix in Training

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    Thanks for the grade lol. Torch does sound good. Should we leave it at that or alter it to a less common word, like Torcher or something like that? Something that wouldn't be heard very often?

    If someone loses a reason to exist, is that the same as a reason to live?
    If the answer is yes, I can see three types of mentalities for the way Desouls think:
    1.Without a reason to live, they become suicidal? I don't see much point in this one
    2.They desperately search for a reason and attack others to A. find a reason similar to the victims, B. absorb their will to live longer and give them more time to find a reason, or C. attack SRK because they either have a special purpose (chosen keybearers) or they believe SRK will defeat them before finding a reason.
    3.Kind of goes along with 1. Desouls violently attack other people to make other people the same as them: broken.

    I can see one of the "Other" Keybladers try to make everyone into a Desoul to achieve this "perfection". But this seems a little weak.



    The following idea came from reading the Wiki. I like the concept a little bit but not too much because if I get this idea that easily, other players might and it wouldn't be too much of a surprising game (even if it isn't an actual game)
    The mystery Keyblader (Who i'm going to refer to as simply Myst. short for mystery) can be going after Turpis, for what Turpis did (make more Desouls) and could resemble Rin's dead (or thought-dead) brother/friend/sister/etc. which is why his/her appearance disturbs her, and end up being that person's Desoul or something related to that person without being that person themself (if a desoul can wield a keyblade)
    Myst is trying to apprehend Turpis because Turpis is going after Xehanort to destroy him by any means necessary. Knowing this would cause damage to other worlds, Rin and Oriens try to stop him. Rin tries to stop Turpis maybe by destroying him? Oriens disagrees with this and Eclipse -thinking this battle would tamper with the KHU- tries to destroy the entire world (Worlds Ends at Sunset?) which would annihilate Xehanort, most Desouls, and the Keybladers who are fighting, therefore destroying all threats. SRK and Myst try to defeat Xehanort and the other Keybladers before that battle turns into a huge war that could destroy other worlds?? That just came off the top of my head.
     
  15. StarSeeker99 Gummi Ship Junkie

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    It's not really the same thing. When you lose a reason to live, it's you, the living you, the Union of Elements that loses reasons to live. When we're talking about a loss of SOS, it's in fact the SOS of the Elements themselves.

    So, simply put, it's a bit like losing a reason to live, but much more profound ; for example, your body doesn't want to live anymore, and you have no control over it. This would be the loss of SOS. If your life is going through a difficult phase, then you at least have some control over yourself.

    I shouldn't have said "reasons of existing" in the Wiki ; it confuses.


    Btw, you come up with excellent ideas. Except maybe for that last one (I'm not sure I got it, and it seems too complex O.O), but everything you said is inspiring.

    Like this, for example, is making me get interested.
     
  16. Pezz Kingdom Keeper

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    hmm... Desouls want to live. It's not that they've lost their reason to exist exactly, It's more like that they no longer know who they are as a person.

    btw, we were originally thinking of making the Mystery Keyblader Xehanort. Here's a brief overview of what's going on. Xehanort has thought of another way of creating Kingdom hearts and he is using the desouls to do this. the desouls attack the heartless and drain them of their will. the heartless then become incomplete hearts that can't return to KH. they then wander to the desoul world called "World Ends At Sunset". The incomplete hearts gather and form an incomplete Kh (a purple moon).

    Halfway through the game Xehanort uses Sora to destroy "the world that never was". The yellow moon is still there. Once TWTNW is destroyed Xehanort Reveals that he is the mystery Keyblader and the only reason he was helping Sora was because they had similar goals (Sora is fighting Malifeicant, who now is occupying The castle in TWTNW. Xehanort is there doing battle in order to destroy TWTNW). At this point in the game Eclipse and Turpis join Xehanort. With TWTNW destroyed, the yellow moon is lingering alone in space.

    At the end of the game. Sora, Riku, and Kairi are at World Ends At Sunset.
    Here's what happens. btw, the brief overview is no longer brief... lol

    the destruction of the Desoul's world to causes the two moons (purple and yellow) to instantly collide. The reason why this doesn't happen without TWTNW and the desoul world dieing can be explained because of the barriers that divide the worlds. Also, the purple moon is attracted to the yellow moon because it desires to be complete. (the yellow moon is made of complete hearts).

    The combination of the two moons will form a corrupted Kingdom hearts consisting of both complete and incomplete hearts.

    this all happens after the first part of the final battle between Xehanort and Sora. After Xehanort is beaten and on his knees.....

    Sora: You lose again. Time to put an end to all of this.

    *Xehanort begins to laugh*

    Xehanort: I, lost? Hahahaha. Don't be so presumptuous, boy! Are you so dimwitted to forgot that one important detail?

    Sora: What detail?

    *Xehanort gives Sora a wicked smile*

    Xehanort: This world ends at sunset.

    *Sora gasps and turns around in time to catch one last glimpse of the sun before it sets below the horizon.*

    Xehanort: Your time is up!

    *A shock wave goes out across the land. the world begins to crumble and die. Xehanort is laughing like a manic throughout all this.*

    Since the world is a desoul, the destruction of this world would mean an incomplete heart formed from a world (imagine the size of it). That heart would immediately join the purple moon and in doing so, The purple moon becomes a complete, incomplete KH (that's definitely an oxymoron, lol).

    Because the heart of the desoul world joins the purple moon, everyone on the planet would end up in there too. (btw Nobodies consider desouls a threat. at that point in time they on the desoul world doing battle with desouls.) Because the desoul world has died, the "walls", or barriers, that divide that world from other worlds would dissipate. Without any barriers, the purple moon would instantaneously collide with the yellow moon. This will form a brown moon, A corrupted KH. And the best part is, everyone is inside. Xehanort, Sora and co, the desouls, and the nobodies.

    Xehanort will gain the power he desired, but in a corrupted form. Sora and co will do battle with Xehanort. The nobodies and the new keybladers will fight the desouls. And the complete hearts, in this KH, will be struggling to remain complete.

    Xehanort gets pwned, as do the desouls. Sora and company save kingdom hearts by somehow uncorrupting it. And since the remaining Nobodies are now inside KH, they finally become complete.

    All Problems are now solved. The heartless numbers are back down to what they used to be. The nobodies are now whole, which means no more nobodies. The desouls have been beaten. the purple heart is gone. KH is saved. And best of all, no more Xehanort!!!

    so yeah, that's our basic plot, though it's been slightly changed. I need to add this to the wiki.
     
  17. StarSeeker99 Gummi Ship Junkie

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    Well, you summed up the story, but that's it.
    To lilbueno : your story is too detailed... we already planned a bit of things for the Keybladers. Those things are still new and subject to change, so I'm sure your ideas will help. But maybe not all at once, hehe.

    Lol, I'm one to talk. My first Posts on the Desoul topics were, after all, huge ideas on the whole concept put together.
     
  18. Pezz Kingdom Keeper

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    lolz I remember that. :D ah, the good old days.

    I like his idea of having a Keyblader being the creator of the emblem desouls. Turpis is perfect for this, especially since we don't really know what to do with him. his purpose for creating them could be to rid the worlds of heartless.
     
  19. StarSeeker99 Gummi Ship Junkie

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    Good old days? It barely happened a month ago!:D

    Wait, we're talking about Turpis trying to turn eveyrone in a Desoul, as lilbueno said, right? NOT going around breaking SOSes and "creating" Desouls in not-yet-fully explained ways, like Xehanort?

    If Turpis is simply trying to turn people into Desouls, then yeah, I agree. He seeks perfection of the universe. For some reason. Maybe Xehanort put that objective in his mind as part of his mater plan?

    EDIT : Ok, maybe 2 months, but you get the idea. XD
     
  20. Pezz Kingdom Keeper

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    not that part. He suggested that Blaze should be the one who created the emblem desouls instead of Xehanort. I liked that idea but I think that Turpis would be more likely to do such a thing.

    btw what do you think of my idea for the reason why Embers are the most common type of desoul?

    btw again, what are your thoughts on the name for a more powerful version of the Ember? I suggested Torch.