Creationism

Discussion in 'Debate Corner' started by Patsy Stone, May 27, 2010.

  1. P Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Location:
    New Zealand
    366
    Did you read my post at all? I have already addressed the point that evolution hasn't been 'fully proven'. It's impossible to 'fully prove' anything. You're looking for a 0 chance of it being wrong. That doesn't happen. You can't say it about any scientific theory. Gravity hasn't been 'fully proven'. Chemicals haven't been 'fully proven'.

    What's your definition of 'fully proven'? Because evolution has been proven enough to satisfy all notable scientists.

    Just in case you missed my previous post, I have included it below. Please do give it a read. It explains why I (and many others) consider evolution to be proven true.

     
  2. Inasuma "pumpkin"

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Location:
    Indigo Plateau
    276
    What's so hard to believe about evolution? I will make this short as to not confuse you.

    Evolution is simply explaining that, over time, organisms and hence matter goes through a change. Not complete change, but slow change which takes millions of years. Over time that change can result in other changes which takes you from lower level organisms such as bacteria to what you and I are, which is certainly possible if the Earth has been around for 3.7 billion years. It isn't outlandish, either, to consider that even the most minute biological changes can occur in even seasonal environments (Galapagos islands, for example). In short, it is biological changes over a large amount of time.

    You've probably heard that we share a common ancestry with chimpanzee's. This is true, we simply share a common ancestor in our DNA, we don't come directly from them in the literal sense. Evolution is a theory to explain a change in biological organisms over time, which is provable.


    You should probably study electromagnetism, which would explain your problem with understanding gravity.

    Air is simply an atmosphere that is spliced at the space-line, and happened to over time become a highly condensed space with primarily oxygen. During the earlier stages of Earth, it is thought that other materials existed in the o-zone and adjacent atmosphere, such as methane and other carbon-based molecules. As organisms started appearing, primarily plants, they started expelling oxygen as waste, taking in the CO2 from the sun and, over the course of millions and millions of years, atmosphere was built on that oxygen (among other places, of course).

    Nothing is simply "just there," it doesn't need to be created. This is a fallacy of how planets form. It is a matter of cosmological physics. You seriously need to hit the books on cosmology and space before acting as though there are no answers to find.

    We don't have a full proof of evolution, however if the universe is expanding, that is proof enough that things will certainly change on a cosmic level.

    Faith is not fully proven, evolution has scientific facts to support its thesis. Do some homework on it, it isn't that complicated at all.

    Also I'm going to go ahead and deny the idea that evolution isn't a complete theory. It's a pretty complete theory, no matter how you look at it.
     
  3. P Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Location:
    New Zealand
    366
    This was the initial statement, and I intend to answer it.

    It's been fairly well established in this thread that the validity of Creationism has been denied. There's little to no evidence of it, and evidence for other theories is considerably stronger. So continuing with that in mind, let's instead consider ways that someone can believe in Creationism without being mentally damaged.

    Firstly, there's simple upbringing. If someone's parents are fundamentalists and are raised in a heavily religious community, breaking free from an indoctrinated thought can be extremely difficult. Not everyone has the willpower to rebel against a lifetime of pressure and disown their friends and family. It's not a matter of intelligence; it's a matter of determination and strength of will. It's not a struggle that can be won with mere bones and textbooks. Instead, it's a deep-seated psychological issue. They're not incapable of thinking; they've been taught not to think.

    What's the motivation to think? Even if they get over their upbringing, they stand to gain nothing from denying Creationism. They'll alienate many people, and lose respect. Furthermore, denying Creationism is closely linked to the idea of denying God, and that means rejecting an entire religion. Again, there's nothing to gain from changing one's belief to atheism. Instead of looking forward to an afterlife, they get a complete lack of knowledge. Also, it's considerably more satisfying to know that a creator has a special plan for you, as opposed to having a genetic imperative to breed and then die. Alternatively, if they continue to believe in their religion, sans Creationism, there's a good possibility of them being damned to Hell. Not to mention there's little reason to trust humans over the words of an all powerful deity.

    So now they have to throw off an upbringing of strict religion and discard friends in return for uncertainty and a bleak afterlife. Anyone intelligent would choose to continue to believe in Creationism. It'll make them happier in life, and if they're right, certainly happier in death. There's precious little motivation to willingly choose atheism. They don't gain anything, and their 'truth' is a lot more satisfying than the truth of atheists. There's a reason parents tell children Santa Claus exists. Why should a child try to deny Santa? It's the same premise.
     
  4. Patman Bof

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    France
    672
    But the only reason you would reject creationism is because rational and critical thinking leads you to the conclusion that it' s all bullshit, hence hell is bullshit, hence you may loose respect from others but you' ll gain self esteem instead. You don' t loose anything since you realize there was nothing to loose in the first place. Whether you go from creationist to catholic or atheist it shouldn' t prevent you to love others for what they are, nor should it prevent others to love you for what you are.
    The same way, knowing that Santa doesn' t exist doesn' t prevent us to throw gifts around at Christmas.
    If your family rejects you anyway for coming out of the closet (about your atheism or your gayness, I can' t really see a relevant difference there) then it just proves they' re not as tolerant and forgiving as their Bible tells them to be. Their problem, not yours.

    My personal opinion is that we create our own hell, living a lie all of our life without allowing ourselves to be what we truly are is, in itself, a living hell.
     
  5. P Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Location:
    New Zealand
    366
    Whether heaven and hell exists or not is irrelevant. If they are acting with a goal of happiness in life, it is in their best interest to choose not to use critical thinking to deny a religion. If they deny their religion, they will lose the confidence that there is an entity with a plan for them. Furthermore, they are discarding the promise of an afterlife. Whether or not said afterlife or creator is real doesn't matter. The important thing is that they believe it's real, because those thoughts are more likely to bring happiness than thoughts of oblivion or pure chance.

    We can still throw gifts around at Christmas, but the aspect of Santa, a loving man who uses elves to wrap gifts especially for well-behaved children, is obliterated. Likewise, one can still follow rules of Christianity or any religion, and respect fellow human beings, but the extremely important idea that there is a god specifically encouraging such behaviour, and promising an eternity in bliss is gone. It makes for a happier society if everyone buys into the idea of an all-loving god, even if he doesn't exist. If someone believes they were hand-crafted by a god who wants them to be kind to their neighbour, then they will be happier and more likely to be kind to their neighbour than if they're taught that they are a product of genetic chance and it doesn't matter what they do in life, because after death, they'll meet the same fate as everyone.

    If my family rejects me, then it most certainly is a problem to me. I've thrown away relations with my family for the sake of an academic argument, and I have gained no more happiness from it. My self-esteem is not aided in the slightest, because I have gone from being a perfect creation of god to a cluster of cells. There is no reason for this hypothetical me to choose to reject my hypothetical religion.

    Why needlessly expose the truth, when everyone is happy living with a far nicer lie? The truth for the sake of truth just isn't worth it. Even if the religion is a lie, the believer will most almost certainly be happier with the religion than without it. What's unintelligent about choosing to be happy?
     
  6. Patman Bof

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    France
    672
    I didn' t realize this could pe personal to you. I' m very sorry to hear that you've cut bridges towards your family over that kind of argument. I certainly wasn' t suggesting to throw away relationships, nor to confront or mock or reject people over their beliefs, I was rather promulgating honesty about our own beliefs. Isn' t honesty a highly esteemed value in the Bible ? Doesn' t it condemn lies ?

    Critical thinking certainly doesn' t prove that God or heaven doesn' t exist, it only proves that you can' t be sure about it just because the Bible says so, which doesn' t prevent you to choose to believe in God for personal reasons. However if you don' t believe that God exists then it' s just another personal belief and I don' t see why it should bother anyone. I judge people on their acts, not on their thoughts. In my book the fact that you' re a believer or an atheist is irrelevant to judge you or love you as a person. Why has there been religious war when the Bible shouts "YOU WILL NOT KILL" ? Maybe cause someone abused of his position in the hierarchy and that a lot of people decided to tag along rather than make a moral stand ?

    I don' t think those two point of views are incompatible. My point was rather than being honest brought more self-esteem than lying all the time. Of course I understand that it may seem irrelevant if it costs you your family. I have very open minded parents so it' s certainly easier for me to talk about such a situation than it would be for someone in the middle of it.
    Note that all of this is only my point of view, I' m in no way judging people who tag along without faith as long as they' re nice people. I' ve known someone in that case and it didn' t prevent me to befriend him in any way. He certainly made me understand that making a moral stand wasn' t easy and that he would never do it, however uneasy he felt each time he was with his family.
     
  7. P Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Location:
    New Zealand
    366
    Not personal to me at all. I'm a full-blown atheist. It's why I especially stated 'hypothetical me' and 'hypothetical religion'. I'm simply taking a different approach to this argument, and presenting a case for why an intelligent and rational person would choose to reject critical thinking, and go for a religion instead, as Patsy Stone made the initial claim that anyone who believes in Creationism is "a ****** who does not deserve the brain they were born with" I have constructed a hypothetical character, who has a family of fundamentalists. His family cares about him, and does not want him to go to hell. This will naturally create strife. Furthermore, there is no practical benefit in his life to being an atheist.

    This isn't an approach you'll find theists often taking, as the basis of it goes something along the lines of "Yeah, there's probably no god, but we're better off believing in one anyway."

    I'm not advocating lying about beliefs. I'm saying that he's better off choosing not to use critical thinking against religion in the first place. A truly intelligent person is one who can choose whether or not to use critical thinking, as opposed to someone who has no choice but to use it all the time. A child can experience doubt over whether the men in animal suits are real animals, but they can choose to accept it, and are not obliged to try to find the zipper. (For the record, I was a kid who tried to open up the suit.) My character is happier choosing to have faith, instead of critical thinking with regards to religion.

    Happiness is more important than truth. It will make my hypothetical character significantly happier if he continues to believe, as opposed to pulling at the loose threads, trying to unravel it. My hypothetical character realises this, and chooses to disengage his critical thinking in regards to his religion.

    Critical thinking doesn't disprove religion, no. However it severely damages credibility, and to expose a religion to critical thinking will more often than not result in a loss of faith.
     
  8. Patman Bof

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    France
    672
    Oh alright, it took me some time but I think I get what you' re saying now. The only thing that bugs me is that if your character is as intelligent and rational as you made him then somewhere deep in his mind he just knows that something' s off. It' s not like you can willingly choose a blind spot to your critical thinking. However, mentally changing the subject everytimes it pops up in your mind because it' s a source of uneasiness seems more credible to me. All of this is a lot easier for a child' s mind (apparently not yours ^^) but still, an adult can act that way too, choosing blissful ignorance on the subject. Now that you mention it there has been some things that I' ve purposefully chose to avoid thinking about in my life.
     
  9. P Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Location:
    New Zealand
    366
    Perhaps there may be some part of him that questions it, but that much is normal in a person for anything. To always have a part wondering "Have I been given full change?" when in a shop, or "Do they genuinely like me?" when with a new friend, for example. However those parts don't overrule the main part. They exist, but the person is able to choose to ignore them.

    You can also avoid thinking about something. Most people do it with death, as it's not a particularly pleasant topic to think about. I know I've trained myself to avoid thinking about it in-depth. In the same way, the person could avoid thinking about contradicting theories. They could also willingly submit themselves to brainwashing-esque doctrine, which would also work.

    However they choose to do it, I've successfully constructed an intelligent and rational character who believes in Creationism for believable reasons. Certainly, not all Creationists fall into this category. I imagine very few do. Even so, just the existence of this character means that the initial statement of this thread has been successfully contradicted.
     
  10. Terra254 Traverse Town Homebody

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The dust bowl of the mid to late thirties
    124
    172
    This is all i have to say [video=youtube;9OO7NJwwryI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OO7NJwwryI[/video]
     
  11. Scarred Nobody Where is the justice?

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Gender:
    Male
    1,359
    @Terra254: Not nessesarly the conversation that you want to put in an intelligent discussion.

    Anyway, I'm not here to argue with people about who is right and who is wrong. This is just my thinking, and I really haven't read all the posts in this thread.

    I personally believe in the idea of Creationism, and that man was created in the image of God. However, I also have an idea how evolution plays a role in all of it. I've recently took a look at the Creation Story in the Book of Genesis. To those who aren't familar, on each day, God does something differently to the world for six days. One the first four, he forms the earth while on the last two God creates different kinds of creatures. For a look at the reading: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis 1&version=NIV

    There are constant double meanings and metaphors found thoughout the Bible. It is my belief that the word "day" does not refer to a 24-hour period. Look at it this way, Moses (the aurthor) had to put into words what God was showing him, but simple enough for people to understand. You can assume that "day" could be another word for era, generation, thousand-year-period, etc.. At the end of each "day", Moses concludes with "There was evening and there was morning...", maybe meaing the moving on to a different era. With that thinking, we start to have a bigger timeline.

    By the fifth day, the entire earth was crafted. It was here that God creates the creatures of the sea. From what I remember from evolution, we began as small beings from the waters. On the sixth day, the land is inhabitted by creatures of their own. Over time, sea creatures evolve into land creatures. Later on, during the sixth day, man is finally made. With evolution, our early ancestors are created.

    The Bible said that Adam was made from the earth, which coexists with the evolution theory, meaning that we were first small creatures from what came from the earth. During the time we evolved, God was perfecting us in his own image. We were created to look like God, so maybe he's not done with our figure yet.

    I'm not trying to start a debate or anything. This is just one idea that I came up with. I personally side more with the whole "God created the world in a week" idea myself. Come on; God just says something and it is automatically created! However, I can also stand by this theory, going with God saying "This will happen now, while this will happen later on".
     
  12. P Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Location:
    New Zealand
    366
    That video satirically portrays a Creationist's argument towards evolution. In other words, it's exaggerating his actions and beliefs so that the viewers can laugh at his ignorance of the theory of evolution. It's not intended to be taken as a serious statement towards evolution.

    I'm trying to decide whether you posted that to have that effect and demean Creationists in this thread, or whether you honestly take those views to heart. Which is it?

    @Tummer: Patsy's statement was that anyone who literally believes in Creationism has brain damage. So metaphorical interpretations were not the target of his statement, and presumably he has few objections to them.
     
  13. Patman Bof

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    France
    672
    You don' t seem to realize that it is the only valid way to look at it ! ^^
    It' s the only interpretation that fits both with the rest of the Bible and what we learned through science. Let me explain :

    "The first day he did this, the second day he did that etc ..."
    The numbers aren' t here to quantify anything, they just convey the idea of a progression, a chain of events. In other words, it' s a metaphor for evolution. As you said yourself God can make anything appear instantly just by snapping his fingers. He' s omnipotent, right ? Why would he need a week ? Why would he be subjected to time in the first place ? He created time ! Furthermore, why would he create every single element of this universe himself ? If I was omnipotent I sure wouldn' t create space, then planets, then cells ... why would I bother ? I would just create something that will evolve by itself and lead to everything I wanted in the first place. In other words I would snap my fingers to throw the initial spark (physical laws and the Big Bang) and then I' d step back, grab a snack, relax and enjoy the causality show.

    Science tells us that the basic ingredients of life (amino acids) were brought to Earth by meteorites. We don' t know how they ended up forming a cell exactly (yet) but we know for sure that meteorites contain amino acids.
     
  14. Arch Mana Knight

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Anywhere
    2,430
    I almost laughed at your response. Please tell me you were being sarcastic. The whole, "If I were God I would have done things this way" thing is silly. To be blunt, you are an idiot compared to God. As am I and everyone in this thread. Why? Because we have fallible human logic. We simply cannot perceive why God did things a certain way and science NEVER has any place in quite a few things relating to religion. Science and logic do not take into account of the metaphysical.

    Despite what I said, I myself essentially believe what you just wrote. I believe that God had a hand in sparking life and all that good stuff keeping the multiverse in one piece and has since then possibly guided it from becoming a horrific monstrosity.XD

    And about the whole "Earth" and space thing, it makes absolutely no difference in the end. The Bible was not made by the greatest scholars of all time. I can easily say the water on Earth belongs to Earth. Who would argue with me about it? Most, if not all, of the water originated from elsewhere but we can still say it's part of Earth. So one can still say Adam was "made of earth". Much less confusing to readers and yet still an accurate answer.
     
  15. Patman Bof

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    France
    672
    Of course I was ! Your post basically paraphrases mine. The only difference between you and me is that you' re a believer, whereas I' m looking at it from a "what if" perspective. I' ve been to catechism for years, so I' m not talking about something I' m entirely unfamiliar with.

    Actually logic led to philosophy, which in turn led both to science and metaphysics.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics
    The Bible is a book. When you read it you obviously try to understand it. You use logic for that. To deny logic wouldn' t deny only science, it would deny your ability to ever grasp what' s written in the Bible, might as well throw it to the bin too.

    Well, meteorites are big rocks, I thought underlining that fact would be a Captain Obvious kinda move.