Kingdom Hearts II Do you hate Kairi?

How so?I don't see her personality as annoying.I find her parts in the game very minor though.>_>

 

If a fictional character doesn't do anything, the worst I might feel is that I don't like the character very much. But actual hate is a bit much.

 

Well Daisy,even if she barely does something,doesn't mean you shouldn't hate her.

 

When I said that hate is a bit much I meant "Well, I understand if somebody doesn't like a fictional character for not doing anything/much but actual hate is a bit too strong of an emotion". But then I don't see much point in having really strong hatred for fictional characters anyway. Although people are entitled to their own opinion.

 

Oh I see what you mean.

PS:You are such an old member.Why is your post count so low?

 

I don't visit these forums very often. Occasionally I come here but I've ventured to other fandoms for a while.


Anyway, I don't dislike Kairi. I think that she needs a lot of work on but I do think she has potential and do not think that she should be taken out of the game. I'm curious to see how Nomura uses her in the future.

 

You have optimism. But I don't think Noruma is gonna do anything. I don't think he cares. Kairi was never a character to him. Only a means to an end.

 

I think Nomura cares for all characters.In fact,if he came here and saw all the Kairi haters,he would probably build on Kairi's character.

 

Actually, I think that you're being too pessimistic (no offence). Maybe Kairi will great character development. Maybe she won't. I want to be open-minded to the fact that it could go either way. But I want to give her a chance because if I don't then I might have a bad bias against her if she does get good character development and therefore it would be unfair on Nomura. It's possible that Nomura doesn't care about Kairi but we really don't know that for sure. Maybe he intended her for be a good character but unintentionally didn't present her very well (which is possible - people who make canon aren't perfect and canon is going to have mistakes).

He may just have not found a good opportunity for her to develop her character yet. Maybe he's already planned something for her that we don't know about - and may do a good job at it or screw it up. But it's unfair to say that Kairi has completely gone down the drain and can never come back up again in terms of characterization.

I just want to be open-minded to the fact that Nomura may or may not develop her.

 

Hate to burst your bubble and continue with this pessimism but his track record isn't the greatest, and two games in a "row" with having such a backseat character leaves little options or reason. Also he did it right with a "half game" for Namine but couldn't pull it together with Kairi, which really just makes things rather dimmer and even worse. He seems to be on the right foot for Aqua, only time will tell, but once more, I have a very slim sliver to nonexistent hope for Kairi.

 

Spoilers

What do we know about Aqua? She has a Keyblade and can fight. Awesome! Give her a medal.

We don't know a thing about her personality yet. Being a fighter does not equal a greatly developed character (Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter's Lin was even less developed than Kairi and she could fight - not to mention that she had more screentime than Kairi and was an important character too). Hell, we don't even know if she will actually be playable (we know that it's Terra, Ven and another character but that character isn't confirmed to be Aqua - it could be Mickey Mouse, for all we know).

I'm not trying to bash Aqua or say that she is going to be worse than Kairi but I haven't got enough proof of whether Nomura is on the right or wrong foot with her yet. So I'm going to do the same with Kairi and say that it could go either way with Aqua too. I hope it's going to go a good way but we don't know that for sure yet. It's too early to say.

We don't even know what he plans for Kairi. Yeah, I agree that he didn't do very well with her in the first two games (and I wasn't impressed when she or Riku got Keyblades, even though I thought that Riku was the most developed character - to me they felt a little like last minute attempts to make both of them look cool) and that Namine was developed better I'm afraid that isn't convincing enough for me that her character development is down the lavatory yet. All she has done is killed a few Heartless and said that she isn't going to be left behind anymore but she hasn't done anything too ridiculous like joined the party the same level as the other party members. She might spend her next appearance training to become a better fighter. She might even get her own game as a main character, for all we know. Nomura could, as I say before, just screw her up either because he is lazy or because he just hasn't seen what's wrong with her yet.

I'm not saying that there's a huge possibility that Kairi is going to get great character development but it's unfair not to give her at least some sort of chance. And it's silly if you say that she is definitely going to get great characterisation too. I don't want to be biased either way. So I'm going to remain neutral on this situation (if that makes any sense).

End spoilers

 

I could see why Riku giving Kairi a Keyblade would be something that people get upset about...but Riku not earning one? He was the original Keyblade wielder intended and never stopped being one. His powers were changed by Maleficent etc and he was altered by the Rikunort events but he never stopped having the potential to be a Keyblade wielder even though he lost the Kingdom Key. He could never have survived what he did if he didn't have a special will and strength of heart.

As for Kairi, there's nothing saying she got a 'real' Keyblade and if it is a 'real' one, what the deal is behind it. People still debate whether it's a pseudo creation like the Dark Keyblade or not, since Riku may have known how to make pseudo temp Keyblades from his time merged with Xehanort's Heartless. I do have a glimmer of hope that he'll develop Kairi more and have her actually work out away from her role of Mary Sue. You don't have to be the greatest physical fighter to not be a Mary Sue. I would hope they just show her being more human with flaws and goof ups as well as strengths. We've seen her get 'stronger'...though that balcony leap offends me much more than Riku giving Kairi a Keyblade...in determination to say she's going whether Sora wants it or not and also prowess, but at the same time, it was only at the end. At least Nomura didn't have her doing reaction commands and flipping through the air etc doing abilities that consisted of more than prancing and bonking Shadows on the head.

In the end, some men just think women are a foreign species to them (and vice versa) so they won't get the portrayal of women done right until they stop doing that and think of a character as a 'person' first. It's the sad truth. I'm starting to think that's pretty much how Nomura can be. You'd never see a boy/man acting like Kairi or Namine..that's for sure because every guy around would just be like...'wtf' and we'd probably walk away from the game. The only girl he's ever designed and been in charge of (since probably FF VI doesn't count) is Tifa and to make up for the fact she's awesome otherwise, he gave her huge knockers that would knock any girl out who was half that active. So the irony is amusing and we can have -hope- for Kairi but only for this reason. He's been seeing that girls play more and obviously has to work on Lightning as a main character so she -can't- be a mary sue. Maybe he'll see what it's like and Kairi's character will also get a face lift. As others have said, the Disney Princesses aren't the problem here. They had tudes of their own etc.

 

Well,Kairi could have got the keyblade to defend herself,but Riku already has a weapon,while Kairi did not.

 

Spoiler

Well, I just thought that with is characterisation, him overcoming the darkness and his insecurities and learning about following the path of Twilight, he was cool and interesting enough already so I kind of thought...why on earth would he need a Keyblade after all that? Is it fanservice or something? He's proven himself to be a very good character already. But never mind. He still remains one of my favourite characters. Besides, Nomura seems to have a reason which is more than just fanservice, so I'll see how he is done in the later games too.

 

I have highlighted and bolded the important part of my quote which you seemed to have missed. :\

Also we DO know something about Aqua, she clearly cares for her teammates and doesn't just gawk or brag whilst she aids them in some cheesy, flowery way; she does the logical and most available option (since you have mentioned KH2:FM+ you should have seen the additional clip by now). If Nomura wanted her to be as girly and "pure" as Kairi he would have given her a weapon that reflected her, armor or not. Amazing we could determine this in a single trailer. But for the sake of repeating myself, ONLY TIME WILL TELL. Also you don't have to be able to play a character to have a good one.

To be honest, I am looking forward to the possibility of a female character who just doesn't just wait on the coast of an island staring dreamily into the horizon as she waits for her knight aka Kairi-ism. Given that Nomura has such free-range with her and yet does nothing is disappointing in on itself, he gives her powers then takes them away, he gives her character indirectly (Namine) then removes it from existence. Since the game series focuses heavily on the Key-blade Wielder, and for two games running out of two and a half, Sora has been the main character. Kairi MIGHT become a party member, but I suspect she will be made out to be a mage, or better yet captured again. She has that sort of luck. She is being given a chance, just not the full 100% hope (unless she dies for some unforeseen reason, then she's really screwed for once.)

Spoilers for Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter.
And BoF: DQ Lin having LESS personality than Kairi? How odd, I mean she's only a member of a rebel organization rather than lie down and die like the rest of people, gets down to business rather than has a panic attack when things get hectic, cares for people through actions more than words, shows concern when necessary and hm, shows FEAR in the face of something FEARFUL. Hm, lack of character indeed! Especially when you consider the game time to each other, BoF: DQ is a very SHORT GAME with very few cutscenes. If we compare "screentime", KH would easily match if not exceed it, especially since we're going by "net Kairi screen time vs net Lin screen time". Also, going from someone who tries to kill you to an ally is NOT development, right? How about leaving her organization after being betrayed (an organization which is the equal to her family)?

I guess you're right, Kairi IS clearly the superior character.

Also for the sake of argument, NINA is Kairi's equivalent in the BoF series, especially in DQ. And even more ironically, the character for Nina (a mute in DQ) is better than Kairi's. Hell Nina even does pull off a miracle and suffers the consequences for doing so. Kairi (I'm repeating myself) however gets everything and suffers no consequences for whatever she does, everything she does only ends in it getting it DONE or someone else fixing it before she can get it done.

 

to be honest don't like kairi but i dont hate her either

 

I never said that you had to play a character to have a good one either. Sorry if I sounded snappy (and I hope that I don’t sound snappy here – I did have a rather difficult morning so please whack me if a magic stick if I do) but I did hear a few people go round saying that Aqua is going to be a way better character than Kairi, for no real reason which does not relate to “Like OMG she can fight!†While I do like some fighter females, I am a little sick of people going “A female character needs to pick up a weapon, fight, look badass, say that all men are sexist pigs and show how masculine she is to be an awesome and strong character because a girl who is girly/gets kidnapped/is physically weak/is a magic user/is a white mage/is self-sacrificing /doesn’t fight at all, she is a doormat and/or has no character developmentâ€. A good-looking male character that behaves in a similar way to the ‘weak’ female characters does not usually get so much bad treatment. And this is coming from a feminist.

And then there are the female characters who get picked on, no matter how they dress, act and behave (and a sexy guy who behaves in a similar way is regarded as cool) but that’s a different rant entirely.

So no, I certainly did not miss the bit you highlighted. On the contrary, it was the bit that drew my attention the most. I think I just overreacted to it.

Okay Lin was a bit of a bad example, especially since it’s been a while since I’ve played BOF: DQ so please correct me if I’ve got anything wrong (oh, and by the way. I’ve found another of the six people in the world who play this game. Hooray! :D ). While I did not dislike Lin, she did feel to me as if she was only there to be a third party member and I really wanted to see more of her. But you have given me a better idea of possible personality traits to work on. I’d say that she was brave, strong in her beliefs, caring of others but distrusting of others at times, especially the Rangers (although softens a bit after spending time with Ryu). And I’m looking at this based on what her emotions and actions tell me about her personality, not on just her emotions and actions (since emotions and actions don’t always equal good character development). And I did see some personality in Kairi, based on her actions and emotions as well, no matter how plot devicey they were. Okay, I’ll change my mind and say that Lin does have more personality than Kairi but that doesn’t mean I think that she is that great a character. She is still one of those characters who I feel I haven’t seen much about but I am still interested in her for some reason and want to find more about her (and I do feel the same with Kairi – I do see personality in her but it does not stop her from being flat and I want to see more of her).

And actually, Nina’s one of my favourite characters in the game.

That’s okay then. I’m not giving her full 100% either. :) As long as she has some sort of chance. Riku’s my favourite character but I’m not giving him 100% chance because it’s perfectly possible that his characterization could mess up too (I liked Cloud’s character in FF VII and the way it changed but I got annoyed when he got back to his old self in Advent Children because I didn’t think that there was a good enough reason for it). While I don’t want to be biased against Kairi, I don’t want to be too disappointed either.

 

I do agree that females shouldn't all have to be posed as fighting characters with weapons etc and also think that for male characters too, to being cast in a lead role. However, the problem here is that most of Nomura's girls he designs are copies of the same genre type which simply is 'white mage or some powerful light entity that holds secret powers, giggles a lot, can't hit a target for much etc. I was fine with it with Aerith because that was just how her character was, but even though she was not a physical character, she had a willpower and wasn't a complete wuss. Even Rinoa had a willpower even though she falls in the category and gets kidnapped, of course. Then there's Princess Garnet in the lead female role who goes emo and you can't do anything with her at points because she can't 'concentrate'. Then we have Yuna who starts off that way and I won't go into the other FFX-2 girls because really their personalities were irritating to me. Kairi just fits the bill of a past series of girls in FF that individually we may have been able to stomach or even 'like' to some degree. You are also right that some females, no matter how they dress, act etc get picked on. It is something we need to pay more attention to, but I do feel in Kairi's case, we have a right to be upset and disappointed.

The problem is that she's a carbon copy of the formula he uses for main character females but until KH2, she showed no backbone and then she's even bordering on cocky like she can handle it all but all she did was beat up on Shadows. She has the secret light creative powers that was used to bring Sora home and also to change Sora back, but in the end she still doesn't have much defined personality other than giggle innocent girl that is Sora's love interest and Riku's friend and who doesn't want to get left behind.

So, while I agree with you that women could be made to appear strong and yet not do 'warrior tactics' and be the next Alice in Resident Evil sort of deal, it would be nice if Kairi just had more personality as she's being seen as 'perfect and perfectly girly' all around. I can't think of a better word to use than 'girly' and know it's a bad word to point out because I certainly don't expect her to act like a 'man' but I also would have hoped she'd act more 'womanly' with flaws and well -at least- on par to what Disney Princesses have shown. Her only 'flaws' that I can pinpoint is that she did kind of shun Riku at points when he had already determined he was going to make Sora pay attention and any competition between him and Sora was pretty much done with in 'seriousness' in the beginning of KH. Namine was exactly the same to Riku Replica though he was -forced- to care about her and react as he did by her powers and she couldn't even give the kid an apology. Sora did it for her.

That's the Mary Sue condition. When guys have to cover for girls, when a girl becomes co-dependent and has no other personality but needing to be saved, the love interest of some guy and has to be 'carried' through a story by the acts of others. She has some potential but the deal is Kairi shouldn't have been portrayed as one of the 3 main characters of the story if she can't do anything on her own. In a way females should be happy even guys see the misuse of the personality of some of these female characters in video games. Most of the fans of the series would love to see Kairi do more and BE one of the main characters. Olette had more personality than Kairi and as she showed she was pretty cognitive and also determined to get tasks done, no one would have expected her to have to pick up weapons and be as keen as Roxas was if she could have. Strength comes in a number of fashions but Kairi having a mysterious power as a Princess of Heart really doesn't save her. Her personality is what could get people to love or hate her. All we've seen her be is little delicate girl with a 'pure' Heart that can do very little wrong and she's just not human to understand.

There are many female characters that could use an overhaul on personality. I think using other examples though from other video games and anime seems to be causing friction on the debate because it kicks up opinions and also some fanboy/girlism. There are a ton of females in video games cast as banal support characters that need saving but people just aren't going to agree on who those are. Your last line though says it all. This is what some of us hope will happen with Kairi and basically with some other females in games too. Kairi looks great albeit the dress she wore in KH2 was lame for the 'stunts' she was pulling like jumping off the balcony. She is amiable and benevolent. She's cute and the two boys clearly care about her a lot. Now, we just need to see more of her personality to know her. After two games though, some people have already given up and it will take some incredible writing to breathe character life into her and make her 3 dimensional and more 'real'.

And we see here that men get hit with some sort of Mary Sue syndrome too though in the male way. The guilt over Aerith's death, not really appreciating Tifa until she's found wounded, blah blah. Cloud had reasons in FF VII to be upset but in AC he went right back to emo-state. Cloud is cool but his AC emoness really was kind of annoying. Again though you close it well with saying you don't want to be biased but don't want to be disappointed either. I agree with that too. The only point is though after 2 games (for me 3 because I count Namine in there too with some acts that were undoubtedly inspired from Kairi) and people are already opinionated so it's going to take some serious effort to make her better for those people to care now.

 

No, but shes so dumb

I dont hate her, it just that she seems a little dumb.

 

I am saddened that you fail to include Riku or any of the other characters that have a stance on good and evil in the matter of life risking. I mean fighting the Heartless has already been called a valiant effort, so really, that's a poor excuse for you to consider the two to be together. It also doesn't contribute to the conversation.