Gay Gene?

Discussion in 'Debate Corner' started by RoxasNoxas, May 20, 2007.

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  1. White_Rook Looser than a wizard's sleeve.

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    That's funny, I don't recall anyone who has survived/ is surviving with testicular or ovarian cancer showing a change in sexual preference. Hormonal imbalances affect topical behaviours at best (i.e. correlations between high levels of testosterone and aggression) , and aside from the physiological characteristics they bring about with regards to sexual traits that's as far as it goes. Neither one affects consciousness or complex behaviour.
     
  2. Repliku Chaser

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    I still don't buy that there is any proof out there of a 'gay gene' but believe it is more hormonal in nature instead. If it were true it was genetic, there would not be gays that come from straight families that are not gay in the least. Seems to me it is much more a hormonal effect and drawn on the person individually. Being as it is hormonal, it's stronger than a mere preference and also, gay people aren't genetic mutations. As for 'gay' people having kids....there are gay people that do have kids through artificial insemination or through working out deals with someone of the opposite gender who won't want the child so that the gay couple can raise the kid. It does happen. However, gay parents don't always raise gay kids either so in the end I still am not convinced that the traits are 'genetic' as much as hormonal and attractiveness or abhorrence to others of the same gender or opposite gender etc is normal. Saying there's an actual gay gene with no real solid evidence in its way seems to justify there's something 'wrong' with the people and animals perform gay acts.

    Bonobos have sex for fun and stimulation and also gay relations etc.
    Hyena females will give one another sex when no males are around.
    Other apes have had sexual stimulations and have gay behaviors occasionally.

    And a big one is that rats that were given more of a female hormone known as estrogen would arch their backs and tilt their heads up displaying a female behavior and they were male. The males were castrated at birth so the lack of a lot of testosterone also aided in this. Thus some of the male rats would assume the male acting in a female sexual way was female and sex em up. Also, female rats given testosterone of male rats will not do the head tilt back and assume sexual position, and therefore also have no interest in sex with the male straight rat. There was a report done on this by 60 Minutes. It's hosted on Yahoo somewhere, probably it can be found by google typing in 'Creating gay rats 60 minutes' or something.

    To me, this makes a lot more sense than this elusive gay gene.
     
  3. Zandyne King's Apprentice

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    The reason why it MAY side with a "gay gene" not so much as a singular gene responsible for it, but a combination of factors beyond conscious control...as gay people are not typically subjected to this sort of forced hormonal treatment, it somewhat makes sense that it would be more linked with something internal such as genetics.

    (I am not arguing/denying your information or points, but more like pondering how it would apply in an uncontrolled environment, and with humans. As technicalyl given that in earlier culture it was more looked down than today that "socially" the tendency would have been "weeded out" unlike the cases that occur in nature as you pointed out. Hopefully this point will make sense.)
     
  4. Repliku Chaser

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    I hear your point but that can also be round-robined in a way.

    Consider that just because some guys wear perhaps more feminine attire or nail polish and may act like 'gays' as some people like to think...these people can be straight. Consider also that females that wear tough apparel, are more dominant in nature and what some people would consider more masculine...these females can be straight as well. Now consider that there are guys that like to look all burly, hairy and all and look 'straight' but are actually gay.

    I don't think that people can be just labeled by a 'gay gene' because hormonal situations occur early on in life. There are stages throughout a person's life that correspond closer to how gays or straights, sexual attractiveness and sexual aversion etc are, just as people throughout their lives at hormonal points change food types they like or can't stand etc. I used to 'love' creamed corn growing up but then as I became a teenager and went through puberty, it suddenly tasted nasty and looked gross to me. Why? I don't have a reason. It's just the way it is. Is that genetic? If it was so genetic, and that was it, I would think it would be -easy- to determine and there would not exist any bi-sexuals. People would either be gay or straight. It would be a lot more black and white. It would be labeled to easily point out what a child was going to be when he/she grew up. This is simply not the case. A girl who loves to play baseball, play G.I. Joe and run around with the boys is not necessarily going to turn out gay. A girl who plays with Barbies, loves Hello Kitty and wears pink dresses is not going to always turn out straight. In the end, it just isn't cut and simple like that.

    Hormones change mainly in very young ages by nature and nurture, by environment and a person's reaction to that environment. Sure, we have our imprinted 'genes' at birth, but the way we lead our lives is affected both by those genes and the immense possibilities in them, as well as that environment around and the choices made and feelings expressed and felt. Another time when hormones affect life big time is when we hit puberty or adolescence. Our bodies change -a lot- and we go through hormones that are all raging around altering us. These two points in life are very important to development. As people age, they also have hormonal changes, pregnancy is a hormonal change, and even men can go through hormonal changes in their late 20s to early 30s etc. Again, hormonal changes transpire in people who grow older in their 50s and 60s and sexual drives decrease, menopause etc. If being gay was genetic and not hormonal, why do people sometimes change their sexual attractions and what they like later in life? It would make no sense. If you have a weak heart genetically, it doesn't get better. If you have blue eyes as a teen, they aren't altering later. If you sweat a lot, you may have to deal with that all your life.

    There seem to be so many things people fail to analyze, to include the fact that gender walls are going down and males and females act differently than they had been stereotypically forced to for years. Gays have -always- been in human society whether some want to believe now it's a fad or not. The only difference with now and back then is that people have more of a chance to analyze their sexual natures and not be condemned for it.
     
  5. TabbyRoxas Twilight Town Denizen

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    I dont believe Homosexuality is caused by a gene. I think its caused by an experience with someone, or it just happens.

    PS, Im not gay, for the record
     
  6. axel8th Traverse Town Homebody

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    I don't believe in a "Gay- gene" for several reasons. One of hose reasons being(Well more like a rhetorical question) Is ther a straight gene? How do you explain bi-sexaulity and pansexaulity*? I think the factor of one becoming gay or straight or any sexaul oreintation is that humans tend to do what they're told that is wrong. If i told you "Jump in the lake if you can swim." you wouldn't do it the first time, but it'll look so tempting that you do it just to prove a point. If a person says "Being gay is ok." than the person it is being told to might not stray to Homosexaulity, and is more open to discussions about the subject.


    * Pansexaulity, means to love one without the factors of beauty or gender, but of intelligence and personality. Personally i think relationships last longer like this.
    So yeah i'm pansexaul, but looking for a girl....who is intelligent!! (They're very hard to come by...=_=)
     
  7. RoxasNoxas Hollow Bastion Committee

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    You make a good point! But there were some flaws in it... but good point!
     
  8. Zandyne King's Apprentice

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    I understand your points perfectly clear, however, I somwhat regret not making it clearer that I thought that genetics may have increased the TENDENCY of homosexuality to exist in a person. I believe I stated this earlier, but in studies there has been a correlation in the opposite hormones being secreted in the brain tissue of the person that does NOT correspond to what would be heterosexual (which would imply genetic).

    I agree that environment can have an impact (it would be ludicrous to ignore the effect of it) but I still believe that genetics have a part in it, or at least bear some part in it.

    As for your comment about people's tendencies and likes/dislikes changing as well as to the "born with blue eyes" statement.... genetically, people can also have a history of heart disease but that doesn't mean they are garunteed to have it, they will merely have a higher tendency of contracting it later in life. This also applies to stigmatism in the eyes as well. But as you said, environmental stimuli will also have effects on these as well.

    (Do not get me wrong however, I am not catagorizing homosexuality as some sort of negative in any way, I find it quite normal- just like there is nothing wrong with people who are say...left-handed, they are merely a minority, but still natural part of life.)
     
  9. Repliku Chaser

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    I suppose what I mean, because I do see your points and all, is that we, as a species, have a lot of genetics that are passed down to us. And so, within all of the collective information we get, also after comes development of the body through the stages of 1-3 years of age, then teen years etc. In the womb even, there are hormonal changes and all. So, I don't really know if I think there is a 'gay' gene as much as I think that the potential to be gay could be present in anyone really, based on hormonal development, environment etc and that the noticing of differences between 'gays' and 'straights' comes down to the fact that 'some' gays may be producing more estrogen (for males) or testosterone (for females) than is regular. These studies on 'gay' people are also done on people that 'act' more feminine (for men) and act more masculine (for women) and I don't think they are all that accurate. The hormonal set imbalance in a man or woman can cause differences in physical ways a person may act or look. For example, a woman with more than average production of testosterone may grow unsightly facial hair or have a lower voice than normal. This doesn't automatically conclude, despite the fact that they have these changes and it can be noted easily enough, that the woman will become a lesbian. The problem is common enough that women or teens are given birth control, to help regulate hormones better, giving the female estrogen boosts to counter the testosterone levels. This helps women to reduce pimples that form under the first layer of skin instead of on top of the epidermis, helps regulate periods to be less sporadic and irregular, assists in lowering testosterone to lessen unsightly hair growths that are more associated with males etc. Women or men can also have too much production of estrogen or testosterone, in those orders respectfully. Men who have sexual issues and can't focus on life may be given estrogen to lower those urges. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that because genetically they inherited a condition parents may have had, they will turn out gay or be straight. There are men who are gracile and some would coin as gay that are not. I think it's important to not really let oneself be tricked by someone's outer appearances because that can really make things 'stereotypical' and there are gay people out there who no one would realize were actually gay. The people used for these tests are not always the examples they should use.

    The problem in the end with it all is that genetically, of course the possibility is within us to be a variety of things, to gain mental conditions and disorders, to excel at similar things as our ancestors had etc. However, the body adapts in a person, using those genes and accustoms to the environment he/she is in, and is also based on things that a person is attracted to or repulsed by. Genetics can be easily said to be the cause of just about anything since without our genetic make-up, we wouldn't have the potential to turn out as we are. However, if it was by a 'gay gene' that some people are gay and some are not, it seems rather bizarre that straight people could produce gay children, and that gay couples could produce straight children.

    I suppose in the end, we still have a lot of research to do on the studies, but it also seems to me that some people come up with 'partial' answers to either make like being gay is a mental disease or a genetic mutation, and I really have seen very little proof that someone is gay just based on genes. I can see though I need to research more but the information out there is just so pathetic because some of it is horribly misconstrued or perverted in some way as a basis to arguments supporting gene mutation or to say there's nothing with this all and being gay is a fad and it can be squashed out. Seldom do I actually see studies of the actual hormonal issues and attractions and repulsions. I think if they studied more into that it might lend some more clarity, because all gay and straight people also are not alike. There are so many sexual practices out there, and some will make some people puke, while those same ones, others might just want to try them and feel drawn to them. We're getting closer to the answers, but for now I think there's just no way to know everything yet and it's fun to at least talk about it. We are kind of talking about this similarly, just I pin it more in one way and you do another, but some points we are elaborating on the same, I've noted.
     
  10. true darkness Twilight Town Denizen

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    wow a lot of words, anyway the gay gene is impossible to get since your father couldn't of had s*x with another and had a child after it, because men doesn't have a womd or anything like that.
     
  11. RoxasNoxas Hollow Bastion Committee

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    Hey... those male enhancement pills... those give you more testosterone, right? What if a gay guy took those?
     
  12. axel8th Traverse Town Homebody

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    ............................................................................................................................................................... Um, i guess he would be a lil' straight-er. I guess. We wouldn't know unless someone tries >_>. I don't think it'll make a drastic change though.
     
  13. RoxasNoxas Hollow Bastion Committee

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    I would try it... but no.
     
  14. Repliku Chaser

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    The male testosterone pills just are used as an immediate action to get some guy to be able to 'hold it up' really. It raises the adrenaline and gets the guy hard. It's going to make the person more horny, so I don't think it would affect someone as a way of making the person more 'straight' or 'gay'. Those pills are really just meant for temporary reactions in the body. You also aren't supposed to use them 'all the time'.

    Really, if they were to test out hormones on humans, which they really can't do much of because messing with the brain is usually frowned upon, I think other hormones would have to be considered and not just testosterone or estrogen. In animals like rats, they are much more simple so seeing their reactions change as in habits of sexual display and habits, or killing the sex drive for that matter, is easier to do because there is less going on with their brains than ours. We have the frontal lobe to consider so until they can actually -safely- test humans where hormonal changes won't imbalance them, we can only guess. Even taking anti-depressants, disorder medications etc, can cause mood changes, alterations in a person's whole demeanor etc and sometimes these affects actually damage people if they have allergic reactions or are forced off the medication too soon.

    Hormones in humans is a pretty tricky thing to study and sometimes even in medicine, they don't know -why- something works, but it does, so they administer it. I just think it's more likely the culprit than a 'gay' or 'straight' gene because a gene then would have to be recessive or dominant, and it would be something entirely decided at birth. You'd know pretty fast if a kid was going to be gay by 10-12, or through puberty but many people who are gay or straight or bi etc explore sexuality and figure out for themselves what they are drawn to. Many of the cases they examine for a 'gene' seem to be those who often seem to be 'stereotypically' gay and all gays do not behave as they do, nor do all 'straights' behave stereotypically. I think more bias needs to be dropped so the studies can be approached neutrally if we are ever to know the exact answer.
     
  15. RoxasNoxas Hollow Bastion Committee

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    You are so damn intelligent.
    Actually, I knew I was attracted to guys when I was ten.

    And I really hope that some studies will be done soon...
     
  16. Titanguy654 Destiny Islands Resident

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    Well, think about it...... Well, i'm not exaclty sue how to say this, so let me give some examples..........

    Could there be a gene depending on your favorite color?

    Favorite number?

    Which video games you liked best?

    preffered brand of glue?

    Whether you like school or not?(Most don't. i'm just saying)

    The answer is NO. Just like there can not be a gene for those things,, there can not be a "Gay gene".

    You say you don't want to be gay. Well, I want to like heavy metal. (The reason being my friends are into into it. That's not important though.) I could listen to it for hours and not like it. That dosn't mean I have a gene that makes me not like heavy metal.
     
  17. White_Rook Looser than a wizard's sleeve.

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    Okay but you're still hung up on a black and white view of the possibility of a gay gene. It isn't simply a matter of dominance or recession, it could simply be the effects and interactions of hundreds of genes that simply code for different proteins that in turn facilitate a change in some form of thought structure. Keep in mind we've only learned to understand DNA and the workings of the brain in the last century. That's not a lot of time to determine anything.

    Also male enhancement pills like Viagra don't stimulate adrenaline. Blood flow is increased but not in terms of a flight or fight response. It's an entirely different hormone altogether that allows blood to flow into the ***** and produce an erection. As for hormones acting within the brain, the only one that is able to act in the brain is adrenaline, because it is able to act as both a hormone and chemical neurotransmitter. Any other hormone like testosterone or estrogen are too large in size to diffuse directly into the brain. the only things that enter under normal circumstances are suger and oxygen. At most any chemicals produced in the body naturally only affect the most primitive of brain structures, the most prominent being the hypothalamus which in turn elicits a number of responses in the body (i.e. the production of testosterone in the testes). Other than that neurotransmitters and the general operations responsible for producing behaviour in the brain, are produced in the brain, recycled in the brain, and maintained in the brain.

    Again though, even if sexual orientation was determined by an imbalance in a certain hormone it would still be traced back to a faulty gene responsible for controlling the production, releasing, and amount of said hormone in the body.
     
  18. Repliku Chaser

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    I do not truly see it in black and white since I am not the one saying it -is- this way and that's it, as you seem to be doing.

    Also adrenaline -can- cause a man to have an erection, or a woman to be -ready- etc. Why do you think in war there have been men that get all excited from it and then have raped women? Or why some countries have kidnapped women and made them prostitutes for soldiers, or why areas would have soldiers that would frequent those sorts of homes? Prisoners walking to executions have had erections caused by adrenaline. It is one of the chemicals motivated by sex. It builds a person up. Since we want to get technical here, the other hormone mainly affected is oxytocin, which is stimulated by Viagra to be released. This chemical is one that arouses men or women, and some amusingly call it the 'cuddle' hormone as it makes them more amorous. So as you can see, the drug, or sex itself, are stimulated this way. Also, there are others involved but eh, I'm so not going into it all. It does more though than just send blood to the right place. Oxytocin is probably more the reason why adrenaline is motivated to act too, let alone the point some guy who has trouble keeping it up is knowing he may last another 30 minutes or so. For that person, w00t.

    I'm not -entirely- ruling out genetic involvement, but I lean more towards hormonal reactions based on those I have spoken with who are gay and myself, and others who are straight, as well as scientific studies that are severely lacking and anthropological and sociological evidences. As said before, there are simply not enough studies done to be black and white about the issue, but many gays or straights start knowing things at young ages or explore and find what's comfortable to them and attractive. Attractiveness or disgust reactions are from hormones and I just find it ironic these are not studied a lot more. Homosexual tendencies have always played a part in human culture despite the fact some have gone out of their way to cover it. It's also occurring in the animal world. Is there a -gay gene- in Bonobos; are closest relatives? Considering they are mainly what people would call -bisexual- I don't really think so. Genetics play their part but I don't think it's solely genetics alone and hormones hold a stronger point for me by these examinations. I'm not buying it's a -faulty gene- as you said until I actually see some proof. That's not black and white. That's saying I don't know and choose not to just say it's absolutely one thing.

    I just thought of something else though that assists in the hormonal thought, but also the genetic thought too. We have failed to actually bring up memes, instead of genes. Memes can actually possibly fit the case better than just genes could and would also offer some investigations. Memes pass on with a smaller 'pool' than genes do but also are selectable traits of a person's countenance that operate differently than genes and so I bring them into the puzzle of the scenario for thought.
     
  19. VI schemer Destiny Islands Resident

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    If you are gay, in theory, because of a mutated chromosome, would that mean that other animals could be gay? I actually thought of that possibility for a while, I guess I am only in 7th grade though. I respect gays as much as "straight" people, I have a good friend who's gay, and he's really cool.
     
  20. White_Rook Looser than a wizard's sleeve.

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    Hermaphroditus is common in the animal world.
     
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