I know that abortion is a sensitive topic, but hear me out, okay?

Discussion in 'Debate Corner' started by KeybladeSpirit, Sep 26, 2010.

  1. Misty gimme kiss

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    Rho, reword that or I'll delete it. This is the Debate Corner, learn to debate, not hate.

    Pika is right; the teachings of the Bible cannot be realistically followed in today's world not only because they can be rather archaic, but because not every person and religion disagrees with abortion. It's fine that you have your religious beliefs, but we can't create laws based upon what religious books say. In America, church and state are separated. If we ban abortion just because the Bible says it is wrong, then we might as well create laws against homosexuals, premarital sex, etc.

    I do agree in that the father should have a say in the abortion, but it is ultimately the woman's choice. Pregnancy is not only a painful process, but it severely alters your body after the fact. It'd be nice if everyone used the proper protection, and nobody ever got an abortion because they take care of the babies by themselves. It'd also be nice if there was no such thing as murder, war, rape, robberies, etc. But they're evils that you can't just make a law against and end entirely.

    Yes, a religion can help you develop your morals, but they should reflect what you as an individual person thinks, not based on what a book told you.
     
  2. KeybladeSpirit [ENvTuber] [pngTuber]

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    You haven't met these people. The people that I'm talking about revere Jesus as arguably the greatest philosopher of all time (if possibly a little insane) and follow His (or just his) teachings about morality to the letter. Surely you agree that it is better to teach a man to fish rather than simply give him a fish. Or that charity should be done in secret so that you don't have to worry about your reward. You may very well be a Christian in all but your beliefs regarding theology.

    As I've said before, much of the Bible is invalid in this day and age. Jews, who use the Law in the Hebrew Scriptures, haven't stoned adulteresses in hundreds or maybe even thousands of years. Likewise, the Bible gives specific laws on how to treat slaves, yet it is was recognized even before CE that it was wrong and only to be carried out in the case of unpayable debt. Since then it's gotten to the point that even that is very questionable. Many of the 612 commandments (mostly punishments for violating other commandments) in the Law have been interpreted to be invalid or even morally wrong, leaving us with just the 7 commandments that are pretty much been totally integrated into today's culture and the 3 that are more or less part of every theistic religion.

    And there is nothing in the Bible against homosexuality. The Bible only teaches against homosexual "bedwork," so to speak, and I agree. It takes away sex as a bodily function and turns it into an act that is solely for pleasure. If you're going to argue that gays donate to sperm banks, that's too close to playing God (which you don't care about) for me to consider okay. I'm all for gay marriage, just so long as gay sex doesn't happen.

    On your argument that we should decide for ourselves what is right, I also agree. The Bible simply sets the framework. I'm not going to blindly follow words written on paper, but if I read it and come to believe that it's the right thing, I'm going to follow it because it's what I believe and it is backed up by the collected works of at least several hundred people, including the followers of the Beloved Disciple who wrote John and the four sects of Ancient Judaism that wrote the Pentateuch. There are also Matthew, Mark, the physician Luke, and Q that wrote it as well. Q is not a person or group of people, but just a name for however Luke and Mark (?) got information for the Infancy Narratives.

    tl;dr: If it's good enough for hundreds and possibly thousands of the world's best philosophers, theological scholars, an old-world scientist, and an unknown source that is likely very knowledgeable, then it's good enough to be considered a reasonable source on morality for me despite the extremely blatant flaws.

    @Rho: How is a human fetus not a human? A human who is still developing is still a human. Going to your movie example, it is still a movie if you have all of the ideas there and just have to finalize it into a script. And what about children and teenagers? They're still developing. So that means that they also aren't completely human, right? Just like how you describe the movie. If the fetus is the script in the making, then the baby, child, and adolescent are still the casting, the filming, the cutting, the scoring, and everything in between. Maybe in my opinion it's not a movie until it's ready to be put on the screen. That means that only adults who are above the age of...let's say 30, should be given the rights to life, liberty, etc.
     
  3. Sara Tea Drinker

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    I'm a strong anti-religious person. I believe in god, I don't believe in religion. I do believe in abortion for many reasons. I do warn you, I'm going to be blunt, Misty... If I'm too blunt, you can edit it or tell me to.

    One, the adoption process is really screwed up. Google me if you don't believe me. I didn't grow up in the foster care system, and I know there's some success stories. But I have heard massive other stories that tell of kids who end up as drug addicts, dropouts, and/or other stuff. Again, I'm not saying that it's everyone, but its a common enough thing. Not including what happens to those kids in most foster family situations. If anything of the last several years has shown.

    Two, the kids who are born in some situations face drug addicts and other family situations that no one should ever grow up under. Most parents don't want to give up the kids after going through the pain of labor. It's partly because of the hormones the process gives off after wards. One of my cousins is adopted from birth and the mother, an underage girl who was sleeping with a 30 year old man nearly dragged my aunt to court to get the custody of the kid.

    Third, I believe that if it was not under the control of the mother. She should have full right to get an abortion. That doesn't mean an affair, but other circumstances that she cannot control. That doesn't include the father. If the father did something to the above woman that stripped away her rights during those moments, he should have none at all.

    Fourth, and I know this will bring up a lot of controversy. No kid under 18 should have a kid unless it's given up for adoption or aborted. So many dropouts are due to pregnancy and having a child. This brings up even more of a slew of problems not only for the child, but for the parent also and causes an already vicious cycle to continue a lot worse.

    Fifth, there should be no limit on time that the abortion should happen. Yes, I said it, I'm used to flaming, go ahead. Many reasons, one, doctor's are now making excuses to prolong the wait for an abortion to happen past the three month first stage so parents have to wait full term. This brings up several problems, including self-abortion which can not only kill the fetus, but can kill the parent as well if not treated. And going back to my fourth point, kids under eighteen will deny being pregnant. It's sad, but it's true. Even if they get tested for pregnancy, they will in some cases deny the first three months or try to hide it. They're in a part of life where their hormones are controlling their thoughts a lot of the time and they don't know how to act with such an event like this in their lives.

    Finally, *bows apology to Misty for next point* there should be a limit of abortions. Yes, I know that this procedure is used as a birth control. Mostly used for people who are prostitutes. After a certain point, the woman should be made so she just can't have kids anymore. It sounds cruel, but it stops the amount of money being poured into the system for all these abortions and also abortions can be massively traumatic for the mothers involved. If a woman is getting pregnant every six months or so and is running to the clinic, it's a lot healthier for her to just have the procedure done.

    Those are my points. Apologies if I offended someone with them. Misty, you are welcome to edit if you think I went too far with said post. On a final note, due to a birth defect, I'm not allowed to have children. And I hope I do never get into a position to have to have an abortion because something happened. I would have it done, though. I asked for the procedure done to make sure I couldn't have kids recently and was refused because they thought I was still too young to have it done and it's permanent to the point where I can't change my mind, despite having a baby would most likely kill me.

    Words can't describe how upsetting and/or frustrating it is for me personally to be rejected from something like that, leaving a procedure that's not only controversial, but illegal in at least a few states. Luckily, it hasn't become in mine. My support of abortion is many levels, and I will always support it.
     
  4. P Banned

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    We really need to put a nail in what the definition of 'a Christian' is. I was under the impression that "Someone who believes Jesus Christ was the son of God" fit the bill. On the other hand 'Christian morality' counts as "everything included in the Bible, New Testament and Old." I don't count following "thou shall not kill/murder" as following Christian morality. Similarly to how eating an egg doesn't count as eating a cake, following one aspect portrayed in the Bible, and not all of it doesn't count as following the morality of the Bible.

    Yes, teaching a man to fish is better than giving him one. Yes, anonymous charity is true charity (although this is getting less and less common, what with donation prizes and such). This doesn't mean I follow Christian morality, because I believe in gay sex and gay marriage. Therefore I'm not eating the entire cake, just some of the same ingredients. So in fact, I'm actually eating a scone.


    So really, it's not the bible or religion influencing modern-day ethics as much as it's modern day ethics influencing the religious texts, causing people to revise the ancient texts with blatant changes such as "602 commandments aren't actually commandments" or "A single day actually means millions of years". Sure, those seven remaining are part of every society, but 7/612 isn't exactly a great hit ratio. They got it right a few times, but they got it wrong a whole lot more.

    Two words: Nocturnal emissions. Isn't that taking away ejaculation as something for sex, and instead making it for pleasure? However that's completely natural. After all, sperm can't stay in the testicles until marriage.

    On playing God: Why don't you consider treating disease to be doing God's work? We already covered that a while back, and you had no retort then. Quoted for convenience:


    The framework, in most cases, is rather flawed. Again, 7/612 is not a good probability of success by any standards.

    As for the several hundred people: It's several hundred people, a couple of thousand years ago. Times change, as do people's stances on morality. The several hundred lived their ways, but we've got different conditions, and have reason to.



    All 2000 years old. Slavery only truly went out of fashion over a thousand years later, and we recognise it as wrong, yet you still want to draw sources from them? Again, 7/612 is a horrible number.

    It's extremely swing and miss. It's got a few good ideas, but those few good ones are common, and are outweighed by the bad ideas.


    [/QUOTE]
    Once the movie is put on screen, for better or for worse, it's out in the world. This is the birth. Perhaps it's a failure, but becomes a cult classic. Maybe it dies young, and is only a B-Movie released for summer. In any case, it's out there. A fully grown movie is one like The Shawshank Redemption, which has led an extremely healthy life. The movie's offspring are sequels. Sometimes they're good, like Toy Story 2 and 3. Sometimes they're crap, like the endless Disney sequels. Sometimes they get aborted, like the original Toy Story 3 was. Whatever the situation, that lost Toy Story 3 can hardly count as a true movie, and a fetus can't count as a full human.
     
  5. Limex Destiny Islands Resident

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    abortion ftw,

    simple reason?, kill something that is not alive,before it comes alive so it wont suffer when its alive, cuse we all know that people who is forced to have kids handel it so well.

    also gay marriage and adoption ftw, where over stocked with babies, lets give them to those people who will actually love them more then people who dont want them and they get moved from home to home

    i dont see where the issue is . well expect for relgion being in the way ofcourse witch you guys arleady seem to be deep in disccution "curtesty from sweden"
     
  6. Maka Albarn It's called love

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    Well, I read bits and pieces, (I didn't want to read all the religious stuff, it was hurting my head) but this is what I always think of when this word pops up.

    One: Yes, horrible things happen to people. For example, rape. Or it would be just an accident. Example: A young teenage couple could've went too far, and now the girlfriend is stuck with a baby. Maybe it's nessecary. Example: The person who is pregnat is old or not stable enough to have a baby.

    I see mostly everyone's point. I'm not going to try to argue with anyone, because everyone is so stuck fast on their opinion. I'll just be wasting my time telling people to do this or force my opinion what I think.

    This is my solution:

    Keep in mind that there are those who are looking for a little child in their lives. A woman who can't have children of her own and pass down the family name, or she simply wants the experience of raising a child.

    Abortion henders this.

    I bet most of your are thinking, "Screw that, they can deal with it." or "There's adopting older childeren, why can't they just adopt older kids?"

    One, it's harder than it seems to go without having kids. You have to go through the experience yourself to know the pain. Even I can't comprehend it. Two, the parents don't know what to do with older children since they never had any themselves.

    Kids deserve life. Whether everyone agrees or disagrees with me, they do. Sure, some will be born into horrible circumstances. Some will be born with disabilities. But without the bad things in life, we won't be able to grow and change over time to get stronger. Give that kid some time to grow up, move out of the dumps, and see them shine. All scientist say that babies aren't fully develope when they go through the process of abortion. So it's basically not alive. That may be true, but it means they're still developing. They're still living. Maybe not the way scientists and we think living is, but they're still alive.

    This is harsh, but I bet some of your are born out of wedlock or you were born in a family that's going through hard times. Your parents didn't cut you off when their circumstances were hard. Think about it.

    For those who get rapped, there's counciling, there's therapy to help you cope with the trama. Everyone will be there to help you. Even if you don't see it, it's true. There are many foundations across the United States who help kids born in these kind of siutations find a wonderful home to be in where childrenless parents can accept the child and love them as their own.

    For those who get in the situation because they went overboard with their boyfriend, it was an accident. But because of your choices, should you end the life of a child just because you'll be embarrassed, ridiculed, shunned by family, or be looked on as a whore? You knew the consequences when you stepped over the boundaries. Whether you deny it or not, you knew what was going to happen if you chose to sleep with your boyfriend. Like victims of rape, you will recieve council, and the foundations across the United States to help babies find a good home will step in to help too.

    For those older couples who are about to have a baby, yes they could be born with disabilities. Doctors that don't support abortion are there and ready to help you out. If people can see with clear eyes, they can see that those children with problems far greater than us really are inspiring in our lives. They'll go through pain, they'll go through terrible things, but don't we all do that anyways all through life?

    "It's cheeper to get rid of it, and you don't have to go through a bunch of crap with a baby that's not wanted with abortion."

    Wrong. It'll be a high price when you look back while you're on your deathbed.

    So, those are my thoughts. Blunder them all you want, but I won't argue back. ^^ Just saying.
     
  7. KeybladeSpirit [ENvTuber] [pngTuber]

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    I'm in a sarcastic mood right now, so expect this post to be at least slightly humorous.

    My point was that if you consider finished script the movie but not the script in writing, then what's stopping me from saying that it's not a movie until it's on the screen. Let's say the finished script is when it is born. After that, it still has to be further developed into the finished product that is a fully developed movie. If you consider the baby fully developed once it has been born, then maybe I think that it's not fully developed until its early 30s. If that's the case, then in my opinion, I should have the right kill my five year old son. I mean, he's not fully human yet since his bones aren't totally hardened yet and he's not as tall as he will be when he's done growing. I was really more or less pointing out an extremely flawed analogy. And let's take the original Toy Story 3. That might be considered a still birth. The script was completed but never got to see the world. Why? Because it died when or before it was born.

    So you're saying that because there's a chance that you'll experience pain in life, you should have your life ended before you're alive?

    EPIPHANY!!!!!!

    Let's make all people have abortions for all pregnancies. Then there will be no new people that will experience pain. I totally agree with this! Let's make abortion totally mandatory so that no new people will ever have to go through the pain that we go through. Ending the human race CAN be fun! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!!!!
     
  8. Styx That's me inside your head.

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    Nice attempt to twist his words, but believe me when I say that it makes you look more foolish than he does.
    I am going to state the obvious here in case you really didn't see through his words rather than bending it to your will just to show your talents at "sarcasm" (which I suspect you of).
    Obviously he meant that unwanted children run a higher risk of not receiving the care they deserve once they are put onto this world. It is harder to love an unwelcome child, a thorn in the couple's life planning. Before you jump to conclusions, I'll do it for you: yes, this does leave the door wide open for convenience abortion, but it's also a valid argument for those who I feel are entitled to it. But that's another discussion.
     
  9. AmericanSephiroth Traverse Town Homebody

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    Ok I tried my very hardest to not just explode but seriously the people(mostly just person) who have been saying abortion is wrong no matter what then consider this. 12 year old girl raped, becomes pregnant, doctor says abort or she will die, what to do what to do, abortion becomes illegal, well good job dumbass you just killed an innocent child who happened to be a victim of circumstances far beyond her control. analogy time i strap a timebomb to your hand with duct tape and say "its illegal to remove." chances are you are going to look at me and say "are you fucking ******ed?" and remove it to save yourself correct? well similar situation and its better to have a LISCENCED PROFESSIONAL to do it rather than a trip down the stairs, a bat, a number of repeated shots from non piercing bullets, or a coathanger right? so either way no matter what you say or what you do abortion WILL HAPPEN its just whether or not it will be safe for the mother or not and before anyone copy and pastes some cookie-cutter religious "god says its bad so no derp" ass response READ everything i have said before you respond and try to use some brain cells an intellectual response isnt that hard so long as you have at least a few brain cells dedicated to OBJECTIVE RESPONSES.
     
  10. KeybladeSpirit [ENvTuber] [pngTuber]

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    This is precisely why I believe it should be highly discouraged rather than made illegal. However, in the vast majority of these cases, death by childbirth is not predictable. And how do you know what will happen to that person after he/she is born? Think about it in a cause and effect way. The baby is born and the girl dies in childbirth. The baby, let's say it's a boy, is raised and eventually finds out about this. It's only right for him to know, correct? At this point one of two things could feasibly happen:
    1. He begins to hate whatever god he believes in or becomes justified in his atheism, then keeps living and moves on without really caring anymore.
    2. He devotes his life to finding ways to stop this from happening to other girls who may or may not have the same problems and in turn saves several hundred lives through his research.

    In the first case, the girl dies and everybody mourns and never truly gets over it while the boy finds out, cries over it, lives his life normally.

    In the second case, that girl's sacrifice saved the lives of many people who could have died just like her.

    So, assuming the zygote/fetus/baby isn't human until birth, would you rather force one girl to live or possibly save the lives of hundreds of girls who will be in the same situation?
     
  11. P Banned

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    No. You've plucked two possibilities out of the sea of an infinite number of results and presented them as the only one. Here's a few more.

    3. Child dies in childbirth.
    4. Child joins a gang due to poor childcare in a foster home.
    5. Child gets hooked on drugs without parental guidance.
    6. Child is hated and unloved by surviving relatives.
    7. Child ends up getting hit by a bus.
    8. Child wins a scholarship to Harvard and studies law.
    9. Child grows up to become an abortionist.
    10. Child becomes a suicide gunman.
    11. Child becomes an Ebay dealer.
    12. Child grows up normally.
    13. Child remains ignorant of circumstances surrounding birth.
    14. Child wins the lottery.
    15. Child has stunted growth and suicides due to bullying.

    See? There are an endless number. You've presented two possibilities as the only two, and that's wrong.
     
  12. AmericanSephiroth Traverse Town Homebody

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    yes but i believe that even the girl would want her own life saved. a fetus is easily replaced but 12 years or more is not so easily and who's to say that the kid would even be accepted i know this is wrong but say i had a daughter and this happened to be her that this happened to i would be commiting multiple murders in a day because its not like the child would even do anything later you are saying something like well she died now someone will do something to help people like her well maybe but probably not seeing as this is reality and not everything that should happen will. now do i claim to say i will know what would happen in that hypothetical situation no i do not. and i do believe i went a little overboard with my statement but truly i believe that abortion should be legal but only a set number of times for each individual and after the limit is exceeded then they can have that abortion but will be sterilised immediately following. i guess that goes back to my position on what lives are more valuable. such as i believe a genius is far more valuable then say someone with an iq below room temperature is that to say that they are valueless no but much less valuable its like comparing a five dollar bill to a hundred dollar bill they both have value but one is far more desirable than the other.
     
  13. Sara Tea Drinker

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    Going with the above post by American Sephiroth.

    A 12 year old, IF she even survives it, gets massive damage done to her body during the labor. In Africa, cases like this are sadly common. And it will cause her body in danger of not only having anymore children, but also damage to the point where they will need extensive surgeries to get it healed. I agree with your points totally, by the way. Anyone under 18, especially around 16, should not go through labor at all.

    It's too young for a fetus, it's too young for a person who hasn't even reached full maturity herself.
     
  14. KeybladeSpirit [ENvTuber] [pngTuber]

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    But if the resulting person

    Here's a thought. Maybe every human is equal in value because all humans are equally human. A mentally ******ed person is human and thus deserves to live just as much as any other human. Suppose you had to choose between your (hypothetical) mentally ******ed sister who you've known all your life and love not only as a human but also as a family member who has helped you through countless hours of suffering just by being there and a genius who may prove revolutionary theories to be true, who would you let die? I personally would choose the sister. Why? Because not only is she no less human than the genius, but she also means more to me than some guy who I've never met. Human value is all according to the onlooker, and the if you believe that all humans are computers that can have their value measured in processor power and RAM, then you really are an American Sephiroth.


    @P: I do admit that I overlooked most of them, but I did say feasible, in this case referring to what the average person in that situation would do. Suicide is far less common than statistics try to show, simply because the average human, even in that situation, is too weak to go through with it. Thus, it is infeasible. Child dying in childbirth is likely, but still infeasible as in this situation we are assuming that the child lives. I'd address the others, but I'm going to be honest and admit that I just don't feel like it right now.
     
  15. Sara Tea Drinker

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    Firstly, I'm getting offended by your vocabulary. Spirit, being a person with autism and not liking "mentally ******ed" being used. Noted, Misty told me just now you have Asbergers, so do I and I STILL don't like your wording.

    Secondly, what the ****... Sorry Mist, has that got to do with abortion? It could be anyone, not a person with a disability. A lot better vocabulary, by the way. Or a person who could be a "genius" could be the person with the disability. Yes, there is people who have high or low functioning autism and other high/low functioning disabilities, that doesn't make them stupid. Also, we're not talking about a living, breathing being, we're talking about a fetus. Something that is unknown on what it's going to be. When it concerns the parent, or it happens through circumstances that they can't control, as I stated before, you have the right to decide to do something about it before it is born. Abortion is a moral and legal right thing to do.

    You're just beating a dead horse and trying to insult everyone involved now, not including dancing like a shaman around the topic because you don't even want to talk about the baby anymore. And frankly, it's pissing me off.
     
  16. P Banned

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    The foetus does not have stronger bonds to people than the girl does, as it's a lump of cells, while the girl is fully functioning. Therefore we can state that the foetus is objectively and subjectively less important than the girl, so the girl's survival can be prioritised over the foetus.

    You seem to be missing the point. The idea isn't to deny the 13 possibilities I presented. My point is that there are an infinite number of possible things the child could do, and it is not a simple split between "He becomes atheist" and "He becomes a super scientist". They're in there, but the super scientist is just as unlikely as an airline pilot, a midwife, a teacher or a fast food worker.

    Also, I trust statistics on suicide rates. Statistics don't 'try' to bias results. They aim to be unbiased, and are more trustworthy than anecdotal experience.
     
  17. KeybladeSpirit [ENvTuber] [pngTuber]

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    First, Mental ******ation never refers to Autism (which I consider to be wrongly classified as a disability) when used properly. It is a developmental disability of its own and should never be confused with Autism, ADD, ADHD, Downs Syndrome, Prader (sp?) Willi, Prader Foster, or any other disability. When I talk about Mental ******ation, I'm talking about real Mental ******ation, not any other developmental disability. I'm actually offended that you think that I, having Aspergers, would use Mental ******ation to refer to anything other than Mental ******ation.

    About the issue of the fetus, it is a human fetus. I still fail to see how a human fetus is not human. You are right that it is not a fully functioning human being, but it will become a fully functioning human being that may do great things for the world. And keep in mind that a newborn baby is not a fully developed or functioning human yet either. Does that mean we have the right to kill newborns?

    Saying that because the mother dies in childbirth automatically means that the child will never grow up to be as human as the rest of us is more closed minded than any form of racism. The fetus is human, and therefore has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, just like a newborn, a 5 year old, a teen, and a fully developed human.

    @P: My point was that the possibilities may be endless, but the infinite number of possibilities can be slimmed down quite a bit to a few very likely ones.
     
  18. Sara Tea Drinker

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    Again, what the **** has that got to do with abortion? Dead horse, again. And second, the disability and what you call it is the same thing. Are you saying each and every thing should be classified?

    I have worked with people with autism and people with asbergers, people with down, people with all sorts of disabilities when doing therapeutic riding. Low functioning can be classified as you so insultingly put it. And you value life of a NON-LIVING fetus over a living, breathing being who has been forced pregnant at the age of 12 because that baby could live? What about the living breathing being that is forced to give birth to said such child? Are you saying that a fetus is more significant than someone who has already made a mark in life?

    Or what about after the birth, the child going through years of therapy, years of surgery, dropping school, and doing god-knows what with her life because of the fetus? Is that fair to anyone involved? It's more likely that both, IF they live, will end up with a very hard life due to something that they couldn't control during it.
     
  19. KeybladeSpirit [ENvTuber] [pngTuber]

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    Except is is alive. If it weren't alive, how could it be growing and developing? I'd post a video here, but it's far too graphic and I can't find anything that isn't purposed to be anti-abortion.

    And if it isn't her choice, are you really so closed minded that you completely exclude adoption? Foster care isn't usually as bad as what the movies show anyway. Many of my friends come from foster care and are very well adjusted humans. The abortion will also have a detrimental effect on her health as well. The human fetus still has to come out somehow or other. And besides that, she will still probably have to go through post rape therapy into her teens and possibly for the rest of her life. On your logic of a dead human fetus being just another clump of cells with no purpose, what's one more issue to deal with?
     
  20. Sara Tea Drinker

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
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    Female
    Location:
    Wherever the wind takes me.
    340
    And yet many others don't go through foster care well. I did mention some do make it out okay. Should I mention all the times it hasn't worked? What about the many cases where overworked and underpaid social workers allow kids to grow up in a very screwed up system where people just are using it for the cash per kid?

    And labor is a lot different than abortion. You're talking about a fully grown fetus. Nine months old, at the point where it's like pushing a watermelon out of your nostril. That's how my mom described it herself in labor. At three months, it's a third of it's size and a lot easier physically on a woman. I note with amusement, you've resorted to name-calling and insults in your points while the rest have posted their points without such insults. That's every entertaining in my POV when you keep on acting as you tell us we're acting.

    And what, having the baby will stop all therapy? We're going to deny therapy and all other stuff because a woman decided to have an abortion? I think that's fair, and if she had to give birth, which can last for days, by the way. And painkillers are very limited during the process and the nurses in most hospitals don't tell you there's a window in which you can have them, she can end up with massive damage that will stop her from having a baby full-term. Later in life that could be raised in the best environment. And have to have tons of surgery because her body is so ripped up at a young age of having the child, that won't cost more.