The best way to "fix" Kingdom Hearts would be for there to be a reboot. But that will never happen and I never want it to happen. I just wish that KH made more sense to explain to people; I want my friends to like it, but if I end up confusing myself when trying to explain it to them, they'll never appreciate it.

KH is bad, and that's good. KH will never be good, and that's not bad

It's not that it's bad but it's just that about 70% of their fans expect too much out of the game.
They expect the game to be perfect, to be the way they wanted it to be yet in the end they didnt get what they want.
Basically most people can't appreciate a good game they expect too much out of it.
They want it to be perfect and I honestly think that it's mostly the fan base's fault.
I'm not stating this as a fact but as a opinion. Please respect this.

KH is bad. But it's still my favourite game series. The sign of a bad story is when the villain is the result of his heart travelling back in time to turn his past self evil, ending with him possessing a young boy's body as well as part of the boy's mentor, who then lost his memory, took on a new name, split into his heart and body, both got defeated and fused back together, only so that twelve forms of him could meet the boy who killed him twice in the future and make him the thirteenth form of him.
That' just a stupid plot point. But KH is an enjoyable kind of stupid.

Compared to the other KH games, it's not exactly... bad.... just really aged. Hopefully 1.5 will have fixed some of it. I still think they should've changed the enemy HP bar, and ally info placement, but whatever.

I disagree. It's a good story. Just told badly. Honestly if the story was about Xehanort and not Sora it would probably make more sense.

Uh. Meant KH as a franchise, not just the first game.
KH1 is the least stupid of the bunch, really.

Fine then, but my point stands; good story, horribly told. Good game ideas, poorly implemented.

If a good story is horribly told, it's not a good story. Saying "Oh, this is bad, but if it were good it wouldn't be" doesn't really add up.

You're missing my point.

A good story can be told horribly. Kingdom Hearts is an unfortunate case of a game series that has been created by a team of people who are horrible at telling stories. It's a story that was written out of order, and has many retcons and confusing parts. The confusion comes from the fact that it was told out of proper order (start to finish) and was instead a jumbled mess (middle to start to finish); if it was re-written with clarity, with explanations instead of the developer coming right out and saying "This game will be the most confusing", Kingdom Hearts has great potential to be on the scale of some of the better Final Fantasy games.

I understand your point, I truly do. You're saying that KH has a bad story; what I'm saying is that within that horrible story, is something with the potential to be great. The great story within the KH series is just so bogged down with crap that it's creators placed on it that it can't be fully realized in it's current form.

When I say that KH has a good story, I look past the annoying retcons, the "everyone is Ansem/Xehanort-ness" of it, and try to see what the developers were trying to make. That's why I put up with it.

Ironically enough the quote about "light being within darkness" applies here, with the light being the "good" story I see and the darkness being the "bad" story you're referring to.

Ok here the thing though:
Why was it that people enjoyed Dragonballz cell saga? It had the same plot as KH so why was it that people enjoyed the plot if its even worse than kh?


How else is Xehanort going to get thirteen new henchman, by just having them magically pop out of his ass? I think square wasn't able to find a way of having thirteen new villains coming in just out of nowhere so they came up with this.
Personally I kinda like the fact that there will be 13 versions of Xehanort appearing, I don't think there is no other way of having new villains. I find the power of controlling time to be badass, I find that it's really cool to see other versions of Xehanort in the new game just to see how strong they are.
Personally i don't care about the time travel, I like it.

How can someone like Kateyo hitman Reborn and Dragonball z but not the plot in kh?
They all have the same plot involving time travel.

In Kateyo hitman Reborn the Vongola family go ten years in the future to fight this guy named Byukugan whom can communicate with all of his parallel versions and rule all the parallel universes but this one. He knows everything in the future, knows what happens in his parallel universe, invented things that were made in the future, and knows everything about his enemies. And the way this was caused was even more ridiculous.

Oh, sure, there's potential. Everything has potential. Sonic 06 has massive potential, but it falls flt in execution. Potential to be great does not make something great, if that were the case, everything would be great. If we go by potential, 358/2 Days should be the best KH in the franchise.
KH has some good ideas, and a high budget. As such, it's essentially fanfiction with an extensive creative team behind it. So it has great visuals, amazing music, talented big name voice actors. But the story is still fanfiction. It's ridiculously clear that things are added to the franchise because somebody thought it would be totally awesome, rather than thinking about how it would serve the story. That's why Axel has a keyblade, Riku is the stereotypical anti hero, and th entire KH2 final boss exists. KH operates on the rule of cool, and the story suffers for t... and I'm okay with that.
Do I wish it was better? Of course. But I enjoy what I get.

DBZ is every bit as bad and fanservicey as KH. You can enjoy the plot of something without it being good. If posh British Xehanort starts saying that Sora wouldn't dare use his keyblayameha wave for fear of destroying the world, I would not bat an eye.
See, what you're enjoying about with KH is the spectacle. Which is the same case with me. But you're mistaking 'cool' with 'good'
Just ebcause something is awesome doesn't mean it's well done.
And here's the thing about time travel. Judging by what you said, that hitman anime you talked about is based entirely around time travel. KH is not, and that's why it's a bad thing.
Time travel is a really cool and fun idea, I love it. But it is insanely difficult to get right, and as such, must be the main focus of the media, or be handled by a much more talented team than the KH one. Introducing time travel in KH is a bad sign, it shows the writers backed themselves into a corner, or that they are just doing whatever they feel like. I have no doubt in my mind that the time travel in KH will be terrible, and what's more, I have a dread suspicion that the multiverse is not far off.

Of course you have to take into account that KH did not begin with the idea that it would turn into this big of a series, so retconning so many things that were cemented in the first game is unavoidable. Square was taking a big chance by mixing Disney and their own characters, and hoping that it would turn into something people would take seriously.

I won't say that KH has a bad story per se, and I certainly wouldn't want any reboot of any kind, (years of story down the drain, no thanks) but you have to remember that it's a flashy action rpg with emphasis on the action. It's story is still enjoyable, but if you want something that will blow your mind with it's intricacies and foresight, this is not that, and it never has been that, so for you to expect it to be is unfair to the game and to it's creators who probably weren't even aware of what they were getting themselves into in the first place.

Sure, there has been some bad writing in recent games (omg BBS what's wrong with you?) but they still serve their purpose, and as I said they are not solely about the story. If you want something with great, well paced and thought out story, go read a book, don't play an action rpg.

I found something we see totally eye to eye on about BBS. I definitely think it was the weakest writing in the entire franchise.
I don't think that saying you shouldn't expect a good story from an action RPG is fair though. We should always expect the best from what we enjoy, or it will never grow.

Oh no, I'm not saying that you shouldn't expect a good story. I'm saying that in the end, it's an rpg. It's not exactly the prime story-telling medium, it's a game. There's more to a game than just a story, and as such there are going to be limitations that you wouldn't have if you were telling the same story in a book, and you have to accept that.

Your right and as I said before most of the fans expect too much out of the game.

I'm not saying that I want it to be perfect; I'm saying that regardless of the many flaws and the obvious lack of foresight I still enjoy the game. I just wish that I could explain it to myself and others more easily.

Yes, and I agree. Square has given in to what is "cool" rather than what would make sense or what would better fit the story.

At this point I feel like Square Enix is killing their own game. The gameplay is getting better and the story, (while I KNOW that it's not the focus of the game, jeez calm down everyone) is making less sense. As Yahtzee Croshaw said, "gameplay should drive the car while the story navigates." They work together in order to avoid crashing or slowing down; they're both important. I don't believe I'm expecting "too much" of a game when I want the plot of it to make sense without getting into theoreticals.

The problem with the story is that they keep introducing new plot elements with each game. The most recent, DDD, introduced dreams, while other games have involved virtual reality, time travel, and everything else revolving around light, darkness, and nothingness from the earlier games. That is just far too many things to cover in one series. However despite where we are now with the story (dreams, virtual reality, and whatnot) the characters have remained interesting for the most part. The story in DDD made almost no sense, but the characters were so interesting, and I couldn't wait to see what happened to who at the end that I still found it very enjoyable.

I'm still not sure how the dreams thing is supposed to work. Someone at Square must've been watching Inception 24/7 when writing that game.

Fun fact, the Xemnas battle theme actually uses the same trumpet accent that would go on to be known as the Inception Bwaaah

Which version are we talking? KH: Fm, KH2, 3D?

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