Master Debater

Discussion in '2013' started by Misty, Sep 26, 2013.

?

Master Debater?

Poll closed Oct 3, 2013.
  1. Jiku Neon

    14.3%
  2. Makaze

    31.4%
  3. Styx

    14.3%
  4. Peace and War

    20.0%
  5. Guardian Soul

    8.6%
  6. hatok

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. DarkTraitor

    8.6%
  8. Below

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Ars Nova

    2.9%
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  1. Misty gimme kiss

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    Cycle One: "Most" Nominations; Thread/Group Nominations
    Cycle Two: Writing, Video Editing, Art Nominations; Roleplaying Nominations
    Cycle Three: Best/Worst Nominations
    Cycle Four: General Nominations

    Vote away!
     
  2. T'Challa Wakanda Forever!

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    DT, hands down
     
  3. Amaury Chaser

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    Definitely Styx here.
     
  4. Pinekaboo Chaser

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    How I'm even on here, I have no idea. I don't think I've even posted in the Debate Corner this year.
    Voted Makaze regardless, as I'm sure most will, since it's what he's most well-known for.
     
  5. Jiku Neon Kingdom Keeper

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    I don't even argue.
     
  6. LARiA Twilight Town Denizen

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    Voted for Styx. As I recall, Makaze relied far too heavily on logical fallacies. Consequently I've begun to resent fallacies because debaters like him liken it to a trump card, which really speaks volumes about the sort of debater he is (one whose sole purpose is to come out on top). Fallacies should never make up the meat of your arguments, they are not trump cards to be substituted for actual responses. A master debater does not regurgitate fallacies. Anyone can apply fallacies. They may help flesh out your argument, but they should never be the whole of it. When in doubt, fallacies should be used cautiously, sparingly, in order to enable readers to better understand whatever concepts you pose. They shouldn't be shortcuts.
     
  7. Jiku Neon Kingdom Keeper

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    I've seen Maki-rin argue pretty recently. I disagree with the assertion that he depends on them. Yes, he does only debate to win. Yes, he favors breaking down the opposing argument over supporting his own. Yes, he treats his own definitions as universal and doesn't explain them until prompted. Yes, he acts like saying the word, "aesthetics", is enough to justify anything related to art. Yes, he turns many a losing argument into a semantics argument. But in the end, for all of the annoying and stubborn things he ends up doing while he's trying to break down the opponent, he does usually follow a consistent and clear thread of logic with minimal fallacy. He doesn't usually fight from a point of irrationality. That's just from the last few I've seen, but in the end, I think he's been this way for a while. He values logic and he's not half bad at it. Still wouldn't say he's the best, though.
     
  8. Styx That's me inside your head.

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    * Jiku Neon, Guardian Soul and DarkTraitor are all very intelligent members, but you'd hard-pressed to actually see them debate.
    * Below and hatok...Can't say much about them at all. Neither have made much of an impression on me (which I don't mean as a bad thing).
    * Makaze was a prolific and savvy debater...last year, for which he rightfully claimed the title of Master Debater 2012. The awards, however, are an annual event and have to be earned (back) every year.
    * Ars Nova and Peace-and-War are both skilled debaters and highly intelligent. I've crossed proverbial swords with both of them and loved it. They are the only members on this list deserving of the title (this year) and all in all, I think PaW deserves it slightly more. He obviously loves debating, is seen doing it often, and is seen doing it well. Few members get all three right.
     
  9. Jiku Neon Kingdom Keeper

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    I've never seen Peace and War make a good argument. Admittedly, these are all posts outside of the debate section, but I cannot actually believe that he suddenly becomes able to write more coherently and gains untold amounts of knowledge upon entering the section. So here's what it comes down to: 1) He's pretty disrespectful towards who he's arguing with and uses sarcasm in a derisive and ill mannered way. 2) He doesn't know what he's talking about a good portion of the time and simply appeals to the same kind of authority figures and pseudo-intellectual nonsense, even if it's been debunked or holds no meaning in the context of the debate. 3) He misses the point of the opposing argument with startling regularity. 4) He cannot consistently paint a coherent picture of his position and seems to even change it as the argument progresses.

    Yeah, maybe I'm wrong and all of the flaws I saw were just in the arguments that I was present for. Maybe he actually takes the time to sit down and think out his argument for other threads. I'm going to base it on what I know, though, and I think he shouldn't even be in the running for first.
     
  10. The Fuk? Dead

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    Oh yeah?

    I DISAGREE.
     
  11. Ars Nova Merry Christmas dickheads

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    Ironically this post is a perfect example of why I'm voting Jiku

    I am... actually stunned that you'd say that about me but thank you :'D Though ngl it kinda stings to lose to PaW in that regard but I mean u do u

    I would actually second all of this so you are slightly less likely to be making it up
     
  12. LARiA Twilight Town Denizen

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    I think the problem is that he's too malleable in the discussion room, there isn't solid conviction behind any of his reasoning. First and foremost he's there to learn from others, but perhaps consequently none of his arguments are particularly strong. Then of course he does have a tendency to rely on emotional intuition, which is pretty much banned in such discourses.

    Burn, though, I must say. Jiku says things as they are.
     
  13. 61 No. B

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    I should not be on here. I don't have the patience needed for a proper debate. Many of my "debates" with friends end with **** YOU I'M RIGHT IF YOU CAN'T SEE THAT YOU'RE A MORON



    and I voted JK
     
  14. Jiku Neon Kingdom Keeper

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    I don't think that something like that really qualifies as a part of debate skills. It was really just positing my own opinion and then explaining it. I feel like debate focuses more on justifying something. The difference being, in this case, an explanation is a reason why I feel a certain way and a justification is a reason why feeling a certain way is correct.
     
  15. Ars Nova Merry Christmas dickheads

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    SEE?
     
  16. Jiku Neon Kingdom Keeper

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    You're being incorrigible.
     
  17. Ars Nova Merry Christmas dickheads

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    Hence my shock at being on this poll
     
  18. Jiku Neon Kingdom Keeper

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    I hate to break it to you, but you're actually pretty good. I've seen you and Ed and Maki-rin discuss various things in the Skype and I've read a couple of your posts on site. I know that you're more than capable of making a clear and cogent argument and defending it without cracking and contradicting yourself, something that I know that I do sometimes. You don't argue on as many topics as some other people, but possibly as a result you know the ones you do argue pretty well. So yeah, don't be surprised. I think you're more than capable of beating most of the people on this poll if the topic is right.
     
  19. Peace and War Bianca, you minx!

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    I suppose I should debate for my vote, even if it's been decided already by most. That and Makaze apparently debated better/more/greater/whatever, in one month than the rest of the members of the site in a year, ha.

    Styx, I am humbled. I didn't expect your vote at all, nor any for that matter, a great surprise, sir.

    I don't really 'debate' outside of the section. And if I do, I rarely take it seriously, that's likely the source of it all, the lack of caring to do well probably does affect my arguments, admittedly. I'll easily admit I am bad at conveying my thoughts and points across, and wish I could do so better. Unfortunately, that usually takes a lot of time to reply to something to result in that. Time which I don't want to spend writing paragraph after paragraph for maybe ten people to ever look at and rarely respond to.

    Ha you should see me in real life, my mother hates my sarcasm. But I try not to insult people. Believe me if I wanted to insult someone they'd know it. Subtlety is play, directness is work.
    And I'm not sure if I miss the 'point' of someone's argument, if I don't, I usually ask them to be clearer with me, it's mainly I don't perhaps address it that much but try to make counter points. And of this is based off of my not-discussion-section stuff then it's probably me being lazy about the argument.

    Oh I have convictions at heart, but many find the heart's convictions to be weak or wrong, especially here. Not to mention personal and many times seen as closed minded. So I keep them to myself, mainly, and rarely show devotion to one argument. I find no one's argument to be truly good enough to stay loyal enough to any of them, even my own changes hands plenty enough.
    And I feel the need to fill the void for the lack of emotion in arguments presented here, too often arguments and discussions seem to be so cold and dry, fact ridden but without any spice and feeling incorporated into them. I feel that niche in this part of the internet, and so balance is maintained.
    I like the use of the word malleable, at least, instead of something like whimsical. Thank you for that.

    ANYWAY, i'm still unsure who to vote for, so i'll reserve judgement till later.
     
  20. Styx That's me inside your head.

    Joined:
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    While he has his flaws, I find his arguments in the Debate Corner among the most comprehensive and I appreciate the fact that he gets to the point. Like I said, there are only two valid candidates for this title (with all due respect for the other nominees): Nova and PaW. I chose the latter because discussion with Nova tends to get lost in semantics a lot more often. When I debate, I want to dive right in. This is the criterion that for me tilted the balance, since the two aren't too different intelligence-wise (and if one would count quantity of debates as a factor, PaW would nail that too).

    And yeah, it's quite common to take the Debate Corner more seriously than other sections. That being said, I didn't limit my judgement to posts in that section only.
     
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