Kingdom Hearts II Nobody, Heartless... A 3rd Being?

Well, thank you very much, even though you can't self-proclaim someone : self-proclaiming is to proclaim oneself, you know...but thx anyway.

I really think I'm gonna make a topic with this big theory of mine, when I have the time...

 

your gonna need a lot of time:D

 

From your theory about the Chasers seeking knowledge and gaining power through intellect.. actually that would fit into the "Mind" part being another being. A being higher than that of a Heartless or a Nobody. The power of the mind with knowledge capable to reanimate a full plate armour and move to achieve their motive that is engraved into one's memories / heart / emotions.

OOT: Actually, I'm hoping somebody could link all the specualtions regarding "KH3". There are soo many scattered all around and most of them can be linked just with slight differences. I wonder if anyone can try pulling them altogether.

 

Personnally I prefer to consider the Heart as the way to power. After all, it's Kingdom Hearts and the keyblade bases its power on the heart of its master.

About that, there's apparently a mistake many people make : a Nobody isn't just the body of someone, it's the body and mind. I don't think you can say there has to be a third being because the Mind hasn't been used as the basis for a special type of being.

A Heartless is a form of transcended existence, since it is only a Heart but can act physically, as if it has a body. In the same way, Xehanort's Heartless acted as if it still had a mind. But even though partially transcended, a Heartless is doomed to fail, since the darkness enslaves it and weakens its heart.

 

Hmmm is there somewhere that state a Nobody is the Body AND Mind of a person who's heart is stolen? Cause all this time I've always known (quote Yen Sid), Nobodies are just the "empty shells of the bodies of the people whose heart is stolen". He only mentioned that "Nobodies can think and plan on a higher level than Heartless" that's why i theorise that a 3rd being could possibly exist.

However, if you can prove that Nobodies are both the Mind and Body then well, I don't mind closing this thread altogether.

 

Don't close this thread just yet. Chasers may very well a fourth species, and my theory about the transcendence of the heart fits just right here.

 

Kanji.. that Ansem Report says Body and Soul... not Mind nor Memories. (Now this got me thinking that the 'thoughts' a Nobody has is only imaginary and inherited by the Original's Soul.. just like how it remembers how to feel but can feel nothing.)

But yes please do continue with your theory, it is already impressive as it is.

 

What is the difference between soul and mind (mind including memories) ? The fact that when you say soul, you add a spiritual dimension to it : the soul is this part of you that will go on existing after your body dies. In Kingdom Hearts, the heart assumes this spiritual and immortal aspect. Therefore when Ansem speaks of soul, he probably means mind, namely the ability to think and remember ; whereas the heart represents the ability to feel, and has the ability to transcend as part of Kingdom Hearts (like the soul becomes a part of God in christianity) or perhaps as something else...

 

Ah I see. Then our perspective of Souls are different. To me, Soul is the essence of living, the spirit that drives the body, the instinct and desire of a person of supernatural base. And thus since you mentioned that "the heart assumes this spiritual and immortal aspect", the part of Soul is reflected in the Heart. Thus this part has been used either by the Nobodies or the Heartless so it does not matter.

What I mean by Mind is logical thinking, intelligence, simply mental thoughts by the brain and the memories stored within it. For me it's a totally different part to the Heart, Soul and Body.

Of course, however, that is only my point of view. Your theory on another being by "Awakening" is also unique that I hope you'll elaborate more upon.

 

I think it's the human, or the original

look at it this way...

Heartless emblem= darkness
Crown emblem = light/Kingdom Hearts since Kingdom Hearts is light
Nobody emblem = Nothingness

 

wow, they say that the first impresion is the most important one, and Kanji just suppased that, I admire that great theory I hope u keep making since they help in maybe understanding more KH or just bringing up new theories.
Now back to the point, a 3rd been. I belive that this been might exist, probably, i dont know a heartless finding a heart since it cant turn into a human cuz it would need hes nobody, then we have Sora wich turned into a heartless and back to hes original form w/o the need of roxas hes nobody, or also a been lookin 4 knoladge...isint that what humas do all their life look 4 more knoladge about everything and anything. I go with the theory of the trinity been made of a heartless a nobody and a human. So maybe the keyblade war was about wut may have been humans or chasers trying to look 4 more and humans trying to stop themselves for more.
Also I belive that the gate in mickie's castle to the battle may have been the one mickie used to get to the place where the secret movie takes place, thus meaning why he appered there at the end.

 

There has to be a 3rd being! What would we do next game?? Nomura only made Sunset Horizons, because it looks cool??

 

To me the drawing looks like the heartless and the nobody symbols are getting out of the crown one... meaning it's the human symbol.
i still belive chasers are not beeings but just a type of an enemy, maybe friend which are human that seek to have a keyblade.
althou i thought of another theroy talking about the the possibilty of a joint heartless and nobody.

 

I have a thought (not a theory). Since it probably was a crown Roxas drew and the nobody and heartless symbol are being pointed at by the crown, maybe the crown is also supposed to point to something else (the third being).

Like I said, only a thought. I don't have any proof except that it being pointed at

 

This explanation reconciles things for me. I couldn't understand why there would be a heart _and_ soul. It was redundant. So I beleived that the third part must be memories/mind. But if we are able to call memories the soul, then things will coincide with Ansem's Secret Report #7.

If Soul/Mind is a third part of a Somebody, can it be slipt in two? Xemnas had intellect and memories, but so did his heartless. On the flip, Roxas had intellect, but no memories of Sora. If a Nobody is made of body and soul, why would a Nobody have it's own symbol that is separate from soul?

I still beleive that memories are vitally important to the KH series, but I'm not sure if I still beleive they are the third part of a Somebody or not.

Kanji, the idea of an "Awakened" being is wonderful. Aoi310, thank you for following up on the mind/memories idea. :)

This makes a lot of sense. If the Soul stays with the Body to become a Nobody, then why would there be a symbol for Nobody and Mind? Maybe the trinity that Roxas draws isn't meant to represent the three parts of a Somebody.

Minor thought: Roxas' black and white clothes could have represented how as a nobody, he is neither light nor dark.

I have a hard time beleiving that the third symbol of the trinity stands for Somebodies. This is based on a feeling, not logic.

The camera was angled to hide the symbol, and therefore intrigue all the viewers. The symbol seems to represent something shrouded in secrecy, something that we don't know of already.

 

Another 'species' and its origins

There is a second version of the 'trinity' design everyone quotes as having a crown:


I bring this up because I know everyone feels sure that had we seen it 'completed' it would have draw a symetrical three-pronged crown. Yet it seems intentional they hide obscure the symbol and although I do believe its a crown - its a good idea to keep an open mind.

There is a possibility what we see might be an incomplete symbol of some other shape. The 'crown' is not the same shape as the crown most often shown (Sora's pendant crown, which appears in a few important places). It has a curved edge, long prongs and is more reminiscent of a trident than a crown. Could it be it is an incomplete design that we've captured? Perhaps something in the making, purposely obscured to prevent any references that might 'give the game away'?

If there is a 'third race' based about the Mind/Soul then there is a difficulty in making it a manipulable bad guy. Nomura's philosophy takes the angle that Memories are something we create, gather and share. It is the act of sharing that makes friends and when we die it is their memories that let us live on. This is a large theme in many Final Fantasy games where people often switch a persons Memories and their 'Soul' synonymously. How do you make someones soul/mind evil? Or even into a seperate entitiy?

I think the better theory would be what happened if you joined a heartless with a nobody. The chemistry would essentially be making the person you broke in the firstplace. Except they would be not be defined by the 'Light' that people choose to live in but be almost pure Darkness. What you then get is one very evil hearted dude in a cold body. A frankenstein recipe for super-bad guys! And far more entertaining form a design aspect.

Yhorian.

PS - First time poster. I like the look of this forum and the creativity that some of you guys pump out. Its inspiring to see such passion for a game.

 

kanij, u bing a good teroy about the soul but, i thik that there are a few holes in it.
first oof, i like to said that the manid and soul are 1 in the same. let me sow u what i am talking aout. thik back when you played castlevania:dawn of sorrow. it had a freurte called"soul seatl" that let you use your enmies skills. thik aout it. what if the old man wanted the e.s's soul? that would explin why the e.s looks like xenornt and why xenss looks like a kingt when you fight him becasue the old man soled his soul but, i guess something want wrong and he forgot his merioues.that is why both xehnort and xenss wanted kolulege so that they could have the same power the old
man had and that is why xenass rfaer the female's aoumr as a 'friend' becase he had
the e.s's merious.


P.s. flialiy, i am done with my fifst post :D.

 

Right, okay, lot of stuff here.

The seperation between the concepts of body, mind, heart and soul have always confused me a little - simply because if anything, to me, the heart is a part of the soul, rather than the mind being part of it. The mind is a part of the body - the slightly more spiritual part of the physical being. It's connect to the soul, yes, but still appart from it enough to differentiate.

If Nobodies are meant to be body and soul, then it's concievable for there to be a kind of 'phantom heart', if that makes any sense - sort of an existential version of phantom limb syndrome. The mind still thinks it's getting information, but there's no actual source. Demyx is a perfect example of this.

"Oh, we do to have hearts! Don't be mad..."

The poor boy's a bit daft, but he follows what he feels. (Or what that waterlogged brain does, at any rate.)

...I think. The three races theory sort of upholds that. Did any of that make any relevant sense whatsoever?

 

Well, I think it should be made perfectly wether it's "soul" or "mind". To me, A Nobody is a body and a mind : it has the ability to think, it has memories of its past existence, but it does not feel anything and won't have be treated to an afterlife, since it doesn't have a heart. The heart is the origin of emotions, and it is the part of the being that joins Kingdom Hearts after the body dies and the mind vanishes. In a way, the heart is the soul and is different from the mind.

Strong Nobodies have a personality, however, because they had strong hearts before they became Nobodies : the memory of their past feelings is strong enough for them to act like they have a heart, in order to cope with their lack of emotion (of which they are aware). Rather than being dull, mechanichally thinking and acting creatures, they give themselves personality traits, affinities for an element, hobbies...They build a personality for themselves, so as to have something like a heart.

Apparently, Demyx really wanted to believe he had a heart, because the absence of it and the feeling of void were painful to him : that is why he snapped and became agressive when Sora & co. denied him a heart. In a way, some Nobodies are convincing themselves they have a heart, with an indeniable efficience : when Demyx said "Silence, traitor", he seems like a man that has been wounded emotionally and that reacts with agression, but with a cold tone in his voice that was more Nobody-like.

If a Heartless is a heart filled with darkness, and a Nobody the body and mind that were cast away, there's nothing left to form a third being. Except maybe the memories of amnesiac Nobodies...

 

Ah Kanji, you theorizing guru, you. XP How did I know you'd be all over this thread.

I want to be involved in this thread, but I can't for various reasons. One being that I don't exactly know all of the root information about this "Room of Awakening". Can someone please explain what it is? And if someone's bored/daring, could they do a small, medium, large, how ever much time you have, and do a synopsis for this thread? I have no time to read all the posts, I am very sorry.

Ah, but I'm not completely useless. I've got somethin' up my sleeve.

The third drawing that Roxas does is very unique. I remember in another thread that someone posted a picture from the KH battle guide (forgot what it was called). And that same drawing was in the battle guide. But oddly, it looked like they used the pointy circle with an 'x' though it as classification. I'm going to see if I can find the picture and the person who posted it. I believe it was in an old thread that I still have saved somewhere. >.>


edit: Found it!

It must mean 'other' enemies. There's the Nobody's, Heartless, and now the Other's that Sora and gang encounters through their journey.