Re:Coded RE:Coded Secret Ending Theories - obviously spoilers -

Okay, just because they never use the word "Death" doesn't mean that isn't the point they are getting at. There are very few times that we see a heartless being formed. I can only think of two. 1st when a person was appearently attacked at Twilight Town (albeit that was a vauge cutscene). And second, when Sora stabbed himself. Both of which I think we can agree, kills people. Also Yen Sid states that if there is any darkness left in any heart then heartless will continue to be a threat. In the case of Sora and Ansem we also see that the ammount of darkness in one's haert plays a factor in what heartless they make. Ansem, who's heart was full of darkness, made the most powerful heartless to date. In contrast to Sora, who's heart was mostly light, and made the lowest of heartless we have seen. And Sora even did it to save Kairi and seal off the keyhole, neither of which are dark reasons. We have Maleficent Dragon who when defeated is said to be a "pupet of the heartless" so if her level of darkness submission isn't enough then I don't know what is. And Ansem the Wise who is sane enough to know he is being overcome by darkness but doesn't care and ends up on a quest for revenge, but not a heartless. What we see when people start letting the darkness in their heart is that they gain dark powers but the darkness starts controling them, they don't become heartless themselves. So I don't see how someone being overcome by darkness is how a heartless is made.

If the machine truely replicated purebloods then it would make purebloods. What he tried to do and what he ended up doing can be different. We know the machine makes emblem heartless. What isn't clear to me is if it does something that makes the initial form emblem, or if it does makes a pureblood that will then become an emblem later.

I lent my KH games out so I can't double check this, but I believe if you look out from the platform where you see heartless being made in one cutscene you can see machines lining those walls and arcs of electricity shooting from time to time. And that can be seen before the MCP rampage.

The apprentices walked into the heart of Hollow Bastion, which we know to be full of darkness but I think could also kill someone being confronted with that much raw energy. I won't call that for or against either side.

And I was wrong on that. I remembered them becoming heartless in their research, rereading the reports it has nothing to do with the machine.

We can only definitively link two nobodies to a heartless. Sora was pureblood yes. Ansem SoD is iffy (He doesn't have a black form like a pureblood and does seem to really like his emblems. But he doesn't have an emblem directly on him. So we can't definitively place him on either side.) And with only two trials and no mechanics statement that I can find we don't have conclusive evidence on that.

And never mind on world of chaos. I found a T-form picture that included an emblem in the cavity, but looking at a battle video it isn't there.


And BTW, I'm not trying to be aggressive or stubborn. I actually like a good argument as long as people are listening to each other. If it is just a battle for supremacy where both people leave thinking the same that as when they entered and someone just folds because they have had enough of the fight, then not so much. Arguing is great, fighting sucks.

 

The 1st person had his heart stolen by a Heartless, he didn't give in to the darkness, which is why an Emblem Heartless was formed (Heartless steal Hearts to create more Heartless). He arguably was killed by the process because Heartless are instinct-based creatures, and tthere is usually something very fleshy around a a person's heart that gets in the way. Sora however, was definetly NOT killed.

Going off of the Secret Ansem Reports, Humans are composed of 3 things: Heart, Body and Soul. The Soul here is the life-force that keeps the body alive. Logically, if someone were killed, their Soul, what keeps their Body alive, would be destroyed, correct? Well, a Nobody is composed of someone's Body and Soul, as the Soul allows the otherwise lifeless husk to move around. There wouldn't be a Soul to animate the Nobody if the Soul were destroyed by the owner being killed, You see? This means that everyone who became a Nobody was not, in fact, dead.

Everyone has Darkness inside them, true, but by being overcome by that Darkness and being able to harness it's power are two very different things. Being overcome means that you cannot control your inner darkness to the extent it erodes away at your heart until it becomes a Heartless. Riku, Ansem the Wise and Maleficent were all able to control the darkness to varying degrees. When Maleficent's heart was unlocked, it pretty much pulled out ALL of her Dark power in a single burst, which she herself struggled to control. That was what the Keyblade of Hearts did; It unlocked the restraints on a persons heart, meaning that more often than not, their heart succumbed to its inner darkness and becomes a Heartless. Kairi's heart when it was released would have become a Heartless too, but she physically cannot become a Heartless because there is no Darkness in her heart. Ansem's had almost total control over his darkness, something of a latent ability from his time and experience as Master Xehanort, I'd imagine. He was different in that he allowed the darkness to take his heart in similar vein to submitting to it, so he would cast off his body.

I never said it truly replicates Purebloods. I said it replicates the process by which Purebloods are generated, but due to the artificial nature of the process, the Heartless were different, and thus branded as such by Xehanort to differentiate them from the natural specimens of Heartless he already had. For example, say you had a transplant of a mechanical 'organ' that replicates the function of your lung. Would that transplant then be considered a genuine, bonafide Lung? Same principle, really.

The only time I know that arcs were bouncing around off of those walls ws when the MCP was trying to attack Hollow Bastion, and even then I think that was restricted to a cutscene, not as an ambient effect in the lab. I know that definetly happened though.

Here, from Secret Ansem Report 3:
It appears my other five apprentices, believing it was for the sake of research, stared deep into the darkness and were pulled into it.
Ansem the Wise theorized that Xehanort had turned Heartless to attempt the reach the Heart of the worlds. He even describes its power as monstrous, so yeah, your right there. The other apprentices did the same to try and follow him, however they did not retain their sentience like Xehanort did. They are academics, and saw that Heartless were drawn toward the Worlds hearts. To survive that power, they would need to become Heartless themselves, logically.

True, having only two definitive examples isn't exactly conclusive. However, combine that with this with the part on the Soul I brought up earlier, it's hard to say otherwise. Ansem the wise also tells us Purebloods are generated from "living hearts" instead of the entirely synthsized process of the Emblems.

Yeah, I had to check myself. I was sure the Emblem wasn't on his chest, but I couldn't find it anywhere on the World of Chaos except the questionable seal.

Don't worry about it, I totally agree. I realise I'm probably coming off as... well dickish, but I enjoy an argument as much as you do. I'm just trying to get the facts straight.

 

Ugh. I can't believe I looked past this twice since we started arguing. Third times the charm I guess.

My confusion lied in the fact that the processes of becoming a heartless is very similar to the process of dying. Differing only in what element is removed from a person.

A person giving into the darkness isn't a cause though, its a result of the heart being cast into the darkness. Sora recalls the experience of him being a heartless to Kairi by saying "I was lost in the darkness. I couldn’t find my way. As I stumbled through the dark, I started forgetting things—my friends, who I was. The darkness almost swallowed me. But then I heard a voice—your voice." So because his heart was cast into the darkness and he became a heartless Sora started to forget all of the light in his life until Kairi called him back. That also holds an eerie parallel to DiZ's and Aqua's experience in the Dark Realm.

The main thing that still confuses me is how do the machines "pretend" to rip a heart from someone's body in the case of the original emblems?

I actually have a theory on that but I want you're response there first to try and make this thread a bit less complicated.

 

Fair enough. Ansem does have a rather poetic way with words.

When I say a person "Gives into darkness", it is really the exact same as the heart being cast into darkness. Their heart becomes completely enveloped in their darkness, their heart is cast into said darkness. That darkness is essentially what a Heartless is, if I recall correctly. Thanks for that quote on when Sora became a Heartless, I'd forgotten that one.

Eeeeh, the Realm of Darkness itself isn't exactly the same thing. Heartless originally are from the Realm of Darkness, but the "Darkness" that Sora describes is more of the actual force, energy, pwer, whatever you want to call it. The Realm of Darkness is an actual location, like the Realm of Light, but Darkness itself is just a force/energy/power. It's kind of hard to describe...

That's a good question... the might have used a synthetic heart, or they may have induced a regular heart to transform through the use of Darkness, rather than forcing the hearts own inner darkness to overcome the heart. I honestly don't know.

I for one, would love to hear it

But, to summarize the original point I was trying to make: The original Six Apprentices heartless were almost certainly Purebloods. The creation of Emblem Heartless does not create Nobodies, as Heartless usually kill people to get their hearts, and the machine doesn't actually use a Body or Soul in the equation of creating them. Does that make things a little less convoluted in here?

 

Now that I've finally seen the secret ending it all makes sense what you're talking about. X P
Since Yen Sid talked about Xehanort having possible allies, it pretty much confirms that someone is out to help him. Now it's very damn likely to be the Mysterious Figure from BBS.

Now I've got a huge inkling in my head. This ally of Xehanort must be someone that is very close to him. Obviously this minimises the list considerably. But the one I've always thought of as his closest friend his the Guardian. The giant shadow behind Xehanort when first battling Aqua, then in his heartless form, a quiet but strong ally, and if you think about it Vanitas is like the Guardians predecessor, appearing a MX's ally and if you think to the Keyblade Graveyard scene he appears from MX similar to how the Guardian does. It's the closest character I can think of to an ally of Xehanort that has appeared in the series. I also don't think Xehanort only has one ally in his bid to gain ultimate power. Whoever the MF is, they are most likely another of his hidden allies.

It'd be ironic if the Mysterious Figure was one of Sora or Riku's parents. That'd mean they can use the power of Darkness and grounding their kids.

 

..Why would it be a different person?


..Why would it be a different person?

 

Newsflash: EVERYONE who has worn a Black Coat wears those boots except Roxas. That comparison proves nothing.

 

I consider those to be different. But the difference is subtle and each one will cause the other giving the time, so largely neglectable but still different.

I wasn't trying to say they were the same, just that the effect each had on a person's heart was the same.

Just a gain of salt before I say it, this theory isn't stated anywhere in the game but as far as I can tell it can work. Then again part of why I'm posting it is for you guys to try and rip it apart.

Okay so Ansem and the apprentices were studying the heart as we all know. As scientists, if you want to study something you are going to want to isolate it. As we can see in a flashback in KH2 Ansem actually had a few contained hearts sitting in his Study, and I would be willing to bet that if we could have seen into the lower reaches of the castle where they held most of the research we would find several more that were never shown. I think that the machine they made created heartless since they did remove hearts from people, but rather than letting the heart be cast into the darkness they stored some of the hearts. As their lab is in the realm of light the natural path of the heartless is distorted. These new impure heartless (emblems) are now seeking what they should have. More darkness. And the easiest way for them to get it is capture someone's heart. Now the person they stole a heart from has it's heart being held be the heartless that took it. And the cycle goes on, hence the heartless multiplying. You can see some of this in Days when Roxas is told that the purebloods aren't important because they won't release hearts when slain, only the emblems will.

What creates a heartless is the process of a heart being removed from a body, and the spirit and body travel to a different realm to form a nobody. The only thing I've seen them say that would stop a nobody from being formed is if the person wasn't strong enough (perhaps to survive the inter-dimensional journey).

 

Well, that's a difference in opinion I'm not likely to change, seeing as both create the same results.

Ah right. Sorry, I've had an argument before where a guy was convinced that the Realm of Darkness and the power of Darkness were in fact one in the same. I think it's easier to maintain a resistance against the Darkness in the RoD though, at least for a strong heart. Riku, Mickey, Aqua and Ansem can survive there with little trouble.

Hmm, I think that could be plausible, as they only had to replicate the procedure on a heart alone, no person was needed other than to have the thing extracted. However, even when Hearts are released in the Realm of light, you can see them go their natural course (Especially in KH2, when they are going into the Organizations' Kingdom Hearts which effectively stopped the flow of hearts to where they should go), so they would have to be forcible contained.

That's the process for a NOBODY to be created, and even then, a Heartless HAS to be created for a Nobody to come into being. Just having your heart removed isn't enough. Otherwise Kairi's body in KH1 would have become a Nobody, rather than just a comatose shell, and there would be a Nobody of Master Xehanort running around. Heartless are created by a Heart being taken completely by Darkness, and Nobody's are created when a Person's heart becomes a Heartless, and their Body and Soul remain on and begin moving of it's own volition.

 

Actually, Braig also distracted Aqua at the Keyblade Graveyard. Given her considerable skill, she may have been able to unravel Xehanort's plan by her mere presence. My point is that he had a reason to have allies even then; his schemes will be less sneaky and subtle now that everyone knows where he stands. Sora is not going to pussyfoot around trying to figure out what his game is, he's going to bash his face in with a giant metal key.

If you think they have nothing to offer, you clearly do not have the mind of a Chessmaster. One can never have too many patsies.

Okay, so emblems beget more emblems. That's what I was wondering before. Even so, having read some of the reports posted here, I'm positive the apprentices' Heartless are purebloods, including Seekernort. He probably just decided to wear the emblem so all the little scamps knew who to follow.

I don't think the MF is any form of Vanitas or the Guardian, because Vanitas is not a Heartless and therefore would have no other form (besides his Sentiment), and the Guardian is a pureblood, so he was most likely summoned by the immensity of Xehanort's dark power. As for other hypotheses: I've heard it said once that the cloak protects one from darkness while traveling between worlds. So obviously the MF is a person who would need that. Does Xehanort have friends in the realm of light? In a few of his reports he stresses the importance of balance, so I can see him having an ally on the opposite side of the fence.

Lol, they'd have an evil time spell called Dark Time-out. And maybe a command grab where they bend you over their knee and you have to hit Triangle to escape before they spank you.

 

Hold the phone for a minute though ... if what Yen Sid says is true, then what was the point of Organization XIII anyway? I mean, unless Xemnas didn't know about the whole kill the heartless and the nobody thing. They could've just killed themselves to get back to their normal selves!

... also, Mark of Mastery? i take it this is explained in BBS which i don't have.

 

I think Xemnas knew. The others might not have. Remember MX was obsessed with Kingdom Hearts, and it shows in his heartless and nobody as well. I think Xemnas was just using them as pawns for this final goal.


As a final point on this debate of the apprentices. Xehanort knew he would lose his heart when he stepped through the door (Granted since it is all the point of view of the heartless he saw it more as losing his body and soul), and he was even surprised when he still seemed human afterwords. Because of this he maintained a sense of self as a heartless. But what of the other five? We haven't seen any other sentient heartless, or if we did then they didn't use that intelligence very well which would be out of character for those five. But I can't see anything Xehanort had to gain by tricking them. So were they even at the door at all? Could they have had their hearts removed at a different point in time?

 

Your Heartless has to be destroyed as well, otherwise you don't come back, and consider that there a thousands upon millions of Heartless, good luck finding the right one. For Xemnas, it was different because he had a distinctive Heartless, but he didn't want a heart. He wanted power, and lots of it. He wanted to become a God. What would he gain from being Human again? Humans are usually weaker than their Nobody counterparts anyway.

Who says that they were powerful enough to have sentient Heartless? Ansem SOD and Sora were the only two Heartless to have retained their sense of self, as said by Axel in Re:CoM. Like I said, they could just as easily have been little Neoshadows or Darkballs. Didn't Ansem say in his reports that the Apprentices became heartless to follow Xehanort?

 

I am quite skilled in the art of cracky comments, and I shall deliver one now: imagine what it would be like if they had all turned into White Mushrooms.

 

According to the secret reports anyone who willingly becomes a heartless retains a sense of self. strength of heart plays no role. and the reports never say when or why they became heartless as far as I see. But there were some obvious points I missed before too.

 

Jokes aside, they couldn't have. At all. Not one chance.

Well, we know that the Apprentices were allied with Xehanort, and we know they didn't create sentient Heartless because Axel tells otherwise in Re:CoM. I honestly don't think just willingly becoming a Heartless means you retain a sense of self, as Sora himself didn't 'willingly' become a Heartless. He just knew that the Dark Keyblade would unlock Kairi's hearts from within his. He couldn't resist becoming a Heartless due to the Keyblade's nature of removing the hearts internal limiters on their darkness. I wouldn't call that willingly, or at least in the same vain as Xehanort's transformation. Of course, I don't have proof that it's anything to do with strength of heart, but if strength of heart means a Nobody can retain it's human form, then it's not a stretch to imagine it being able to preserve the humanity in a Heartless.

 

well, i would think Luxord would be with Grim Reaper because it deals with coins and thats like gambling...i also this that whatever heartless the organization member summons is theirs. of course that wouldnt really work for some members. this is an interesting topic....ive never thought about that...

what u said about Sora not "willingly" becoming a heartless...
i think it counts as willingly even if u didnt know that u would turn into a heartless. so he meant to do it.

 

Spoiler

I think it may have to do with both of them holding more than one heart inside of them. I mean think about it. Xehanort had the heart of MX and Terra (and maybe some of Eraqus) and Sora has his heart and Ven's. It makes sense. Maybe since they had another heart to spare they retained their sense of self.

 

In my personal opinion, Sora knew it would turn him into a heartless but was willing to do it anyway to free Kairi. I would class that as becoming a heartless by free will. And more definitively is the fact that Ansem the Wise lists him as evidence for this very point.

I've had another thought regarding the obscure nature of Xehanort's heartless. BBS spoilers

Spoiler

Xehanort had both Terra's heart and his own in one body at the time of apprenticeship. Based off the theory described in the thread earlier, what if the two hearts went to two different places? I doubt Xehanort's heart went anywhere other than the darkness, but what if Terra's made it somewhere else? Ven's made it to Sora since their hearts had touched before; Maybe Terra's made it somewhere? If that were true then Ansem SoD would meet the requirements for both pureblood and emblem.

Though now that is in dangerous ground of basing a theory off of a theory...