Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

Like what? Ignoring Demyx, who did he treat unfairly? Besides, that is not Sora's nature. He dedicates himself whole heartedly, trash talk included. He does not seem like the type of guy to say "Sorry, I need to kill you".

 

Views...

Dragons: I say, "Yes, Sora was justified in killing the Organization."
Organization XIII was messing with the other worlds. They were destroing worlds, just to get enough hearts to build there own world. They should have been searching for their own hearts.
I personally think that Nobodies have the right to exist (no matter what DiZ says). They're people too. I wish that Sora didn't have to kill the Organization. One of the former members might have ralied all the lesser Nobodies to a cause that would help the worlds.

Twilight: *not avalible*

 

Hm, the old Organizatiobn moral debate... we had that how often now?

Well my opinion is we simply do not know enough. We know they were understandable from some point of view, but we also know that they sure were doing some evil things. but there it pretty much ends:

We dont know how much damage they exactly did.
We dont know what exactly their kingsom hearts was and what exactly would have happend if it had been completed.
We dont know if Xemnas had some motives we dont really know about.When he talks of building a new world we dont know if he just means the world that never was or the whole universe.
We dont know what they would have done if they had gotten their hearts back (esspecially the orginal 6).
We dont know if DiZ and Yen Sid maybe knew things we dont.

358/2 Days might clear a few things up, but so far i dont think we know enouh to judge them completly.

As for Sora, while he was a bit agressive at times, i think he was mostly justified as all memebers attacked him first... i dont think that he would have killed demyx if he had surrenderd

 

Sora didn't treat the Org like dirt. The only one that is at all questionable is Demyx who he called on the carpet pretty coldly. There was -no one- else he mistreated at all. Considering all the mind games done to both Roxas and Sora, as well as Riku, and the fact they were killing tons of people for their 'right to exist' and surely would not have strayed from it, I am failing to see how he was treating them like dirt. He was out to 'stop' them. He even tried to -talk to- Xemnas and change his mind. The only one questionable of treatment was Demyx who already had messed with Sora earlier, but I can see some possible redeeming qualities in him. The others were not going to be swayed and Xemnas had way too much power for them to bother with it. Axel and Roxas were the only ones who decided to get out of it and to do anything better at all.

I really am at a loss why people think the Org were so abused by Sora. He did what he had to do or else worlds were going to die as people already had. Yes, Riku seemed to show some more empathy and even conversed with Axel and Namine more and left DiZ because of his seeking revenge issues, but Sora also was being forced to follow paths which were orchestrated by the Org since Roxas ran off and was rejoined with Sora. The Org was -not- innocent. It's not the point that they had a -right- to live as others did. The Org abused that right by threatening and following through with a plan made for around near a decade, which consisted of destroying others. That kind of behavior -must- obviously be quelled. None ever asked Sora for help to find another way to do things or he would have definitely tried. He could have even been duped worse for his kind heart and sympathy. Why should he care though for people that are doing what they had done? There was nothing showing him any good at all. Riku had more sympathy but he also remembered Castle Oblivion and was caught between DiZ and the Org after he defeated Xehanort's Heartless. He did see things more clearly but he also was not going to just let the Org do what they were. No one could afford that.

 

No. The only thing the Organization ever did was get Sora to destroy Heartless so they could become whole. They just wanted their hearts back. Its not their fault that Sora is a mindless idiot who destroys every heartless he sees.

 

You must also think that Riku is a mindless idiot. Because he too destroyed the Organization. I am sick of this discussion. What Sora did was needed to be done.

 

I so agree. The Org -controlled- Heartless. Xigbar corrupted a dragon to become Heartless, Luxord made a Heartless and was controlling it, Saix showed he had control over them and could make them do what he wanted, etc. They were not -nice- people. It's one thing to feel benevolence for their situation but they -were- murderers, pure and simple. Why people continue to feel they are innocent because they just wanted to be 'whole' is not right. There are serial killers who killed people to be 'complete' too. They have a lack of emotion as well. There was even one who killed to drink blood believing he had to in order to live because he felt he was decaying. The Org did -not- know for sure their mad plan would work and this guy did not obviously know what he was doing was going to work either. They simply -believed- it would work and obviously not all of them did as Axel left and so did Roxas. Some others such as Marluxia and Larxene obviously did not care for things either and Vexen as well. It is clear the Org was mainly held together by Xemnas believing and forcing that on others. The plan was wrong and yet followed through to sacrifice the lives of others to do this. Sora isn't the villain. It's extremely clear. I don't see why people also keep saying we don't 'know enough'. We do. About the only thing we don't know is -why- Xemnas chose to do this direction and what his actual true motivations were after, which still won't justify the deeds themselves. It will however, make it more clear why he chose such drastic measures and was fanatical about it.

 

Yes. He was. Very much so, in fact.

Organization XIII spent ten years destroying lives, worlds, and people. You cannot do that without having consequences. They killed people. They ruined people. Heart or no, that's bad. They did nothng to redeem themselves. Alright, so maybe he was a bit harsh to Demyx. But hey, all his previous encounters with the Organization didn't warrant kindness. You get what you give.

And to all those who see them as harmless little fluffbuckets- Imagine if YOUR home, your family, your friends, your entire LIFE was destroyed by a group of "people", who don't even care that you just went through hell and back. And to top it all of, they've got the person you're in love with, and your best friend. I'd be a just a tad annoyed if that happened to me. Of course, this is assuming I survived the ordeal.

As interesting as their story is, and as much as I really do feel bad for them-it's gotta suck not being able to feel anything anything-they really did deserve their fate.

Oh, and what if Xemnas's Kingdom Hearts wasn't they way to get their hearts back? All those innocent people, gone, all those worlds, for nothing.

 

Without destroying the Nobodies the Poor Nobodies would have destroyed many hearts just to get back theres so yes Sora did do the right thing

 

Yeah, but in kingdom hearts chain of memories, the org. helped Sora too.

 

it really all depends on the "what who have happend if the organiztion would have won" thing
i think he did do the right thing
he brought peace back to the worlds

 

In the long run, yeah I'd say Sora did the right thing in destroying the Organization. The only alternative I see in that would be him somehow ridding them of their evils and making powerful allies in the process.

 

...What? The Org didn't help Sora at all in CoM. Marluxia and Vexen were trying to use Riku and Sora to gain control of the Org. They tormented them and then when neither would cave in, they tried to kill them. There was no one really helping them but Namine, after Axel freed her. Where in the whole story did you think they were ever helping Sora at all? I am really kind of confused and am interested to hear the thought to that.

 

Also, the reason the battle with Demyx is so pivital as to the change of the Orgs feelings towards Sora, is that after the battle Sora killed Demyx, in apperant cold blood, Sora called out the rest of the Org to fight him.


The Org did help Sora in Chain of Memories.

In Chain of Memories, Mar, Lar, and Vex were not working for the Org, they were working against it.

It was an attempted coupe that went sour because Sora was to idealistic to realize what was happening.

The Org did help him in Chain of Memories. Axel, still loyal to the Org, freed Namine and allowed him to regain his memories. He also killed Vexen for Sora. He even tried to kill Marluxia, but Sora was so dumb, he attacked Axel who was working with him at the time.


Also, you have to consider, even though they are called the Organization, they really functioned more like individuals.

Xemnas, and Xaldin, deserved to die. They were evil sadistic bastards who played a game with peoples lives.

Saix didnt deserve to die at first. He acted very profesional. He even warned him about Axel, who at the time was a threat to Sora and betrayed the Org. It wasnt until Sora killed a member of the Org in cold blood, and then called out the rest to fight him that he became an evil *******.

Xigbar didnt do anything in the Land of the Dragons until after the Demyx scene.

Luxord didnt do anything in Shipwreck Cove (or whatever that world is called) until after the Demyx scene.

The Org didnt do anything in Agrabah until after the Demyx scene.

The Org didnt touch the Pridelands, or Atlantica.


Maybe you forgot, you spent the first half of the game fighting Pete and Malificent. In the end, Sora actually sided with them. They were the ones who were putting Heartless in all the worlds.

 

well i say it was justified since they like kidnapped Kairi D:

 

Axel was loyal to the Org to a point. Everyone, including the other Org members in KH2 totally knew Axel as a wild card and that he could go any way he wanted and he did so. Axel helping out Sora by freeing Namine was obviously -his- choice alone. Also note that Axel went through great pains to ensure -no- Org member but himself survived so that there was no one to refute his story that he would tell Xemnas later when he woke up. Axel is not 'the Org' and he is the -only- person to -help- Sora at all, and it was clear his motives were his own.

Also, the Org had -captured- Namine and she was a prisoner to them and Xemnas did know about there seems to be something of a mention in KH2:FM. Surely freeing her went against their orders even if Marluxia was using her at the time. In all technicality, Marluxia -was- placed in charge of the Castle Oblivion and the strife that was going on was because both Marluxia and Vexen were attempting to do things. However, Lexaeus and Zexion really were not so involved in the coup stuff and still were doing things wrong.

In case you didn't notice the plot point of what Axel was doing, Axel only went after Marluxia because Marluxia ordered him to 'kill the traitors to the Organization'. He went and killed Vexen under that order but then came back for Marluxia to declare he was the true traitor. Axel uncovered Marluxia's schemes through suspicion and then Larxene assuming he knew stuff and was in on it. Axel also probably -knew- that Roxas was Sora's Nobody. He was protecting Roxas when Vexen nearly gave out the information to Sora about Roxas saying they didn't need Sora after all. The Org -did- want to use Sora all along but then Roxas came into being and they didn't have to. Keep in mind, CoM is only about 3 weeks after KH so Roxas would have been discovered not too long before. Axel even went out of his way to get rid of the Riku Replica so that no traces of what had happened at the Castle Oblivion would be able to be used against him. In the end, Axel was utterly a wild card and out for his own survival and he was not just there working for 'the Org'. It's probable that Xemnas might have put him there to deal with traitors but surely Xemnas did not just assume the whole group there were all traitors and they definitely did not know that Sora and Riku were just going to show up there. If Axel was so worried about it, he probably could have gotten some assistance from the other Org members who weren't at the castle, other than Xemnas who was asleep. In the end, the Org did not help Sora at all and they had no reasons to. Axel helped Sora and freed Namine. None of the others were out to aid Sora at all in CoM. They were using him and manipulating him and then when they realized both he and Riku were not cooperating with plans, they tried to kill them. End of story.

Okay, well Sora wasn't out determining they -deserved- to die. He was saving his friends and others from their schemes. Sora even tried to get the two to stop and neither would bend. He obviously had to make a choice. It's not a matter of deserving to die or not. They -had- to die to save others. It's that simple.

Saix was worse than Xaldin. He was an emotional sadist, tormenting people who had Hearts because he remembered what it was like to have one. He was cold, calculating, and probably just as bad as Xemnas in all counts. I'm not sure how anyone could think Saix was a 'good guy' before Demyx's situation. He was the biggest manipulator in the whole game other than Xemnas himself. He even says to Xemnas at the end that there would be 'no more games' or something to that equivalent and then things went uglier at the TWTNW. He also lied about Riku, kidnapped Kairi (of course after Axel did) and was playing a game trying to dispute what Axel had said about the Org set up. He was never a nice guy.

Xigbar was working at the LoD area and it is purely obvious he had to be doing things there for a while. After all, he corrupted a dragon there and also was going to try to do something at the palace there but Riku locked him outside. Xigbar seemed to care for members of the Org and wanted Roxas to come back, but other than that, he was #2 of the Org and just as involved in things. He may have been redeemable but not with Xemnas running things. In his case, he had to be dealt with simply because he was on the wrong side and that happens in war, you know. He chose to fight, he made his decision. Sora even reacted rather emotionally after the fight when he walked out shaking his head sadly and he was confused. I don't see he was over joyous there.

You do not KNOW that they were not doing things for a long time. They were scheming these things for 10 years. It is pretty obvious Luxord had to be doing things for some time and he wasn't just sent out after Demyx's death. You seem to think they so cared about Demyx who was not that important at all to them. If anything, Xaldin would be more of a power to them and influence because he could be dastardly. Demyx was running small time duties such as retrieving the Olympia Stone and fighting Sora because they wanted to get him to work for them willingly, believing Roxas would. Roxas 'ran away' so obviously it wasn't happening even if Roxas was at all active. Demyx was -not that useful- to the Org. There is no turning point just because he died. He even kept saying things like 'they sent the wrong guy' etc. He was following orders but he was not so devoted in it, obviously as others like Xaldin and Saix were.

As for Atlantica and the Pride Lands...why would they want to attack there? They aren't aquatic beings and they aren't going to shape shift into animals. It would make no sense to bother with those regions.

You spend a lot of the game fighting Maleficent and Pete who have their own agenda to build up their dark council and all but you also spend a fair amount of time through the whole game gathering information about the Organization too and the Xaldin fight was pretty early on too, as well as having to deal with Demyx in Olympus Coliseum. Pete and Maleficent are -not- the only ones putting Heartless on worlds and that was more than shown. Even if they were doing a lot of things (not much because they were really pathetic and thwarted by the Org enough too) in the end it did not matter who put the Heartless where. The Org wanted to -use Sora- in the first place and Roxas was a convenience. It was all planned, and the Heartless being out there meant that Xemnas's plans would go right because the Keyblade Master would -naturally- have to stop the Heartless. Being what he is means that if Heartless are on worlds that Sora goes to, the Heartless are always drawn to the Keyblade. Therefore, if he kills them after drawing them out in droves he is doing exactly what the Org wanted. Also, that big pseudo-Kingdom Hearts in the sky there wasn't just a decoration, ya know. Many lives had already been lost to the Heartless and all. The plans of the Org were set in motion once they knew a Keyblade Master once again existed.

Another point is this, those Heartless created by the Org all had Heartless emblems. There are also -new- Heartless that were seen that were emblem Heartless. It seems pretty obvious to me that the Org were out making some new Emblem Heartless possibly even with Xehanort's old machine, but either way they all had Heartless emblems which are signature to being created and not purebloods. Why would the Org put those symbols on them? Why also didn't they just use Heartless from the first game? They obviously wanted to use their own and they made the big ones at least which was proven. Beast's castle had the big monstrosity in the ball room and the dungeon door, Luxord and the gold collecting one, Xigbar and the dragon one. The Org got away with what it did because it remained in hiding for years scheming and planning. They knew all about nearly everyone. They had their master plan.

So in the end, I don't see how you assume Demyx was -that- important at all in the scheme of things that they'd all drop their deals and go 'oh now it's oOOon'. It was 'on' before Sora, Riku and Kairi ever knew of the Organization. It may have been 'on' 9 years before Kingdom Hearts when Xehanort and his companions gave themselves to Darkness. I'm not seeing they'd really give a care about Demyx who just seemed to be the gopher Org member with no real intellectual factor (meaning he wasn't one of the brains organizing things, not that he was stupid or anything), he was low in number rank, and was not one of the originals. Things only got more deadly after that point simply because Riku and Sora were figuring out more and King Mickey was also uncovering a lot of things to expose the Org's intentions. I'd even gather to say that King Mickey's and Riku's background deeds may have been what really had the Org going nuts at points. They were the ones, after all, that tried to keep Sora on a straight line, even when things got ugly.

 

I believe Sora gave everyone he fought fair warning before attacking.

The events on CoM take place right after KH.

And in Kingdom Hearts Final Mix, you fight Xemnas, who already knows Sora is 'incomplete'.

I felt it kind of harsh when Sora and company laughed when they knew Maleficent was dead. It was when they first meet Pete, and Pete didn't know she was gone.

 

no...all they wanted was there hearts back...was that so wrong?

 

It isn't wrong they wanted their Hearts back but the top ones of the Org were the ones who started the existence of the Nobodies in the first place by going to Darkness willingly. Their deeds cumulative are what is wrong, not their desires to be whole which probably would be rather instinctive.

Let's use another type of example here to explain.

There's this group of people that come together because they all need livers to survive. They make their own little mafia group and go out and look for healthy candidates with livers, then one by one they murder them and do a procedure of removing the people's livers so they can live. Is this wrong? They need livers to survive, but don't try to look for any other method such as waiting for willing organ donors, or checking out what medications there are that might be available otherwise and help them.

Now some cops find the scenes of the mutilated bodies and investigate that in each case a liver is carefully removed and then they find out the storage area for the livers as these people who want to live so badly put them in a big freezer to await surgery. These people can't be absolutely ensured that they will survive but they take a leap of faith to say sure they will. The cops are given riddles all along the way, toyed with and friends are messed with in attempts to get their livers. The cops are taunted along the way as they try to find the culprits and what they are really up to. Families and all are in distress and trying to defend against these killers that seem relentless in their task and without remorse for their deeds. It seems like a cult deal and all. As the cops get nearer to the killers, they try to stop them but it's no use. They have to kill them one at a time because the killers will not stop at all with their goals of becoming whole and healthy again.

The cops also find out that there are some members who don't obviously agree with the policy. Some decide to rebel to become the new leaders of this underground cult and two of the cops are played with pretty badly while there is a girl with a bad liver that is merely a prisoner and used because she can woo the cops and disorient them. Another one of the people aids the cops somewhat but clearly has his own motives and the cops, though one is injured, both escape just barely after being trapped for a time. Then they find out that two of the members obviously didn't agree with things, but their motives were more pure than the rest of the order. They try to help and set things right so the cops can stop the killers.

This is the same sort of scenario but made more -real- as it could be something morbidly possible in our world. Surely, no one at first would want the killers to be dying, but when they become killers, how are they -justified- in their acts? This is how the Organization appears to me. It's not the deal that they should not want Hearts. The wrong thing here is the method in which they went about to get the Hearts that made them have to be stopped. KH is not just a kiddy game and the plot does go into some serious things even if Disney covers it up nice to make it not seem to. It has some mature issues in it and this is one.

 

yea he was , the organization were forcing heartless on to people just so they can get their hearts. If they weren't killed then a lot of people would hav died.