Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

Huh... So you really think Demyx would have vanished if Sora did not taunt? You honestly believe Sora would have been left alone? Nonsense. Demyx turns aside, composes himself, mutters how he "told them they chose the wrong guy for this" then attacks. Demyx appeared in front of Sora. It was planned. Demyx would not go to meet Sora for fun. He was sent to attack.

Sora had every right to draw a weapon. So far, Demyx had overpowered the trainer of a demi-god and tried to drown Sora using water-clones. I would be wary too. The trash talk... The org has also trash talked Sora. Also, slamming a fist may be tempting, but it is illegal. If someone tells you, "I bet you can't even fight!" Do you try to drown them? I promise you, your defense will not be very convincing if you use that.

Must we go over this again? He was attacking Sora with all sorts of things. Sora very easily could have died. In fact, Sora did die around 5-6 times. At least when I played. If someone attacks Sora, he retaliates. There is no proof Demyx was pressured into it. However, for the current topic it makes no difference. Demyx was set on attacking Sora, so Sora had to kill him. This is Sora being justified, not the org.

My question too. Was their goal wrong? My answer, with the current knowledge I have is no. Their way of achieving the goal was wrong, and the way Xemnas used it was wrong.

Achieving it took tormenting Sora, his friends, keeping Kairi captive, trying to kill Sora at the end and trying to kill Roxas. This was wrong. Anyone disagree with this statement?

The usage was not good. Xemnas used it for Hate, Rage, Envy, Sorrow, Anger and pain. No happiness. This was not morally right. He was unable to remember happiness, to call upon it. This left him as a shell, a vessel for darkness. He had to be stopped. Any disagreements here? (It may have turned out differently if the heroes had not interfered, but Meh.)

He did the whole "End this charade" thing. Even if I got the chronological order wrong, the intent was the same.

Their motives matter, yes. But not in this trial. This is about Sora attacking them. I was saying that if Karma could not provide a reason for them choosing a harder route, I would assume they went out of their way to hurt people for fun. They may not feel fun, but they can go through the motions for it.

Whaddya mean even Pika_power?! I can see logic when it stares me in the face! (Such a pity you two can't. Sora is justified, dammit! XD)

*Forcepalm*

Yeah, I just used one of Lucario's attacks. Sue me.

But seriously, ever heard of a game called Shadow the Hedgehog? It was meant to answer the question on why Shadow looked like Super form Sonic. Did it? Nope. It brought in the "Black arms" and "Black Doom".

Now, I credit Nomura with better plot writing ability than the developers of that game, but I have an ominous feeling that none of the questions here will be answered. I also doubt the link with Venn will be explored.

I also feel that after Days, we will see lots of Akuroku art/comics spring up.

 

Even if at times we get frustrated, I actually think it is good this topic remains open. Even if we've said some pretty harsh things it hasn't made any of us hate each other for our opinions, right? So in the end, I think it's wise if it does stay open until we can play 358/2 Days and then see how we consider things then. As we've all pointed out, that's when we will know much more than we do now (I hope) and have some blanks filled in as to what the Organization was totally up to. I doubt it's going to change my stance on Sora's own predicament however, considering what he will only know is what happened in KH2. However, some of our own stances will probably change as to how 'bad' or 'good' the Organization was and to what sort of things they themselves are justified in.

 

I agree with Repliku, we'll have to wait so we can find out.

 

no, he stopped nobodies becoming real people. whats wrong with that?

 

Sure, who wouldn't be after destroying an evil organization?

 

Inherently there is nothing wrong with the Organization getting hearts. (I have my own theories, but meh) But the thing that was not okay was their abuse of Sora and the worlds. They tried to imprison Roxas and tried to stop Sora awakening in the beginning. They also tried so hard to manipulate him. Can someone please explain why asking nicely, or simply standing back and watching him kill heartless was out of the question? They simply had to pressure him and his friends into killing. It was the same with everything. If they weren't doing that, they were raping Beast's heart. In my book if they attack the reformed hero of a love story, they are evil.
Oh, and did I mention that they planned to get rid of him at the end?

 

wow, what a lecture. i guess but they didn't imprison roxas, they hoped he would cooperate with them. and roxas knew what would happen if he betrayed them.there was no point in asking sora to do what he's already doing and he's doing it to slow. but you were right with the other bit. they were not cool

 

Despite that Organization XIII was defeated, that still doesn't mean no more Heartless and Nobodies. Maybe once the Org. had their hearts again, they could have done good things there on after. Maybe, maybe not.

 

I felt Sora wasn't just for destroying Organization XIII. He felt that since they didn't have hearts that they shouldn't exist. Well all they wanted was to do was exist and collecting hearts was the only way. I'll add more info later.

 

The small catch is the method they used. I could argue that all Osama-bin-Ladin wants to do is enjoy a peaceful world. However he blew up the towers killing thousands.

Sora didn't destroy them because they had no hearts. That was DiZ' personal grievance. No, Sora destroyed them for his own protection. When he first encountered them at Hollow Bastion, they tried to destroy the world and taunted Sora. Later they get Beast to go insane, they steal the Olympus stone and they send their minions to attack his gummy ship.

 

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That it... you awoke the sleeping giant...

Its not the same as a man who kills innocent in the sake of world peace. The Organization kill the mindless evil the sake of the many. Thier primary targets for the goal to work were the HEARTLESS!!!

Thier master plan was to have Sora kill the heartless. It wasn't until Sora killed an elite Nobody did they percieve him as a threat, and therefore start screwing with him!

Wrong... that is why he did. He even used that as an excuse for instigating a fight with Demyx.

They did not try to destroy the world at the first Hallow Bastion encounter. If they did desire to, then an Org XIII member would have stepped up to him on the spot! Not restrain himself like Xigbar did!

I'll admit it... harmin Beast was underhanded... however, definatly had a just purpose... which I won't disclose until the court case is handled...

We discussed the Olympus Stone over 9000 times... It was to face hades, and Demyx actually had the full intention to return it... Unlike Sora... who actually did steal it!

Do the gummi ship missions count as canon? Anybody? Ok... well if they do... they only nobodies who "Attack" Sora are the bombtype... who die themselves if Sora crashes into them. Later others attack him... but thats after Sora goes all "LEEROYYY JENKINNNNNNS!!!!!" on them...

 

Sue me.

They set the heartless upon Sora. Sure, they needed strong hearts. But they got the heartless to attack Sora. They created new heartless and summoned them, opposed to the heartless backing down after KH1. Oh, and can you explain something else: Why would they attack Sora with their OWN NOBODIES IN HOLLOW BASTION!

They knew he had Roxas within him and they knew he had dispatched the majority of Castle Oblivion. Oh, and they were screwing with him right at the start. They appeared and attacked Hollow Bastion with Nobodies. Then when Sora tried to talk to them, they laughed at him and vanished. That is, except for Xigbar who went out of his was to befuddle Sora. No, there was no turning point for the Organization. They were rotten at the start.

Demyx? Didn't he knowingly borrow the stone from Sora then attack him in the underworld? Isn't Sora allowed his macho-pre-fight-talk? Demyx appeared there for a reason, and it wasn't to talk to Sora, as Xemnas had that chance before.

Didn't they attack the gates wit their nobodies? Wasn't that gate holding back the tide of heartless? I would describe that as an attempt on the world's life.

"I swear Mr. President, those plane Hijackings were just tests! I would never actually crash them into anything! If I wanted to do that, I would have used these plastic explosives, not these metal bombs."

If you bring up anything about his transformation into a Beast and how being a nobody would help him...

Uh, didn't Sora go to check it out, then find it was stolen? Besides, why did Demyx want to face Hades? Oh, and if I am right, Sora actually got permission, opposed to this Borrow business.

The only ones? It proves my point that the organization 1. Cared nothing for their own kind and 2. Were screwing with Sora all the way through.

Oh, and Shall I bring up the fact that Xemnas attacked KH1 Sora?​

 

Originally Posted by Pika Power

Well for one thing it all comes down to surival. In the human mind, you do what you have to do to exist even if it meant destroying innocent lives. For the expression is every man for himself. Let's not take this off subject by using Osama-bin-Ladin to state your point. That's a whole another topic in itself and should not be compared to something that is completly fictional. So getting back to the point the organization under Xemnas followed orders, but each one of them had their own intentions and knew what they had to do to exist.

It didn't matter to any of them who they destroyed for how can they feel loss or guilt if they don't have feelings and a heart? Sora made the situations worse with being cocky and blinded by his own pride upon taking on challenges that would of normally killed him if it were not for his friends helping him out. He was unjust for not understanding them and basically rubbed his own ego in their faces. This applies to a select few members who thought didn't matter to much.

 

But they taunted him first. They rubbed their ego in his face first. They did everything first. Sora only treated them as they did him. He's not Jesus, he is allowed some trash talk, especially considering that the Organization could not feel emotions. Besides, he is a 15 year old kid whose spent the last year in stasis thanks to the Organization having a row. In a way they are responsible for his brain damage.

Your point about the Organization not caring it was wrong helps me a great deal. That is why Sora was right in instigating a fight with Demyx on the basis "You don't even have a heart!" The organization was not able to be reasoned with. It had no ethics, only a goal that it would do anything to achieve. Anything like that needs to be destroyed, as it will inevitably bring up trouble, as the Organization did.

 

Pika... Pick on someone your own size...

Sora killed the Org simply because he thought he had more right to live than they did... he effectivly commited an act of genocide.

Take that arguement on!

 

They just wanted their hearts back!!

 

Wrong. He killed them because they "Were messing up his worlds".

He pitied Axel and he didn't mind Roxas. He forgave Namine for screwing his memories up! He could have hurt her badly then, but instead chose to make her smile.

Don't think of it as Genocide, think of it as war. Sora just happened to win.


Emobunny: I disagree. They did want hearts, but they also wanted to delve into the depths of the heart. That was the catastrophe DiZ gave his life to avoid.

Not to mention their methods of getting hearts. They sent the heartless after Sora so he would destroy them. They used Sora and attacked Sora. They disrespected Sora and they treated him like crap.

 

Let's go over the Organization's deaths:
- Xemnas: Had obvious evil plans and was killed to prevent freaky stuff from happening. Justified.
- Xigbar: Tried to snipe Sora from above. Self-defense. Justified.
- Xaldin: Obvious wicked intent. Justified.
- Vexen: Not killed by Sora.
- Lexaeus: Not killed by Sora.
- Zexion: Not killed by Sora.
- Saïx: Kept Kairi imprisoned even though Sora begged for her release and showed hostility on several occasions. Dangerous fellow if he'd act the same way if he did get his heart back. Justified.
- Axel: Not killed by Sora.
- Demyx: Was given the chance to run but chose to fight. Summoned water clones to harm Sora before the latter lifted a finger. Self-defense. Justified.
- Luxord: Attacked Sora out of nowhere. Self-defense. Justified.
- Marluxia: Obvious wicked intent. Justified.
- Larxene: "Thrice the pain for you means thrice the fun for me!". Need I say more? Self-defense. Justified.
- Roxas: Not killed by Sora.

Yup. Sora's one twisted bloke...

 

Ok but you're missing two important keys with the situations with Xigbar and Demyx. Xigbar confronted Sora the first time in Hollow Bastion, but it was Sora who fueled the fire with his smart alec tone. You don't say "you're gonna cry?" to someone who could clearly kill you. That could of been prevented. Luckily Xigbar was amused by Sora's antics and did not decide to attack him then and there.

Another point I would like to bring up was Sora misjudging Demyx the second time of their encounter by calling him a wimp and saying he couldn't even fight. Demyx clearly was tricking Sora into saying that by displaying a facade hoping to take his heart by turning him into a heartless or simply killing him for the goal of the organization to become complete. It was Sora once again who had to make the situation worse with his own two cents and his mouth blabbing. He knew Organization XIII was dangerous so why would he say that to any member? Sora clearly fell in Demyx's trap and would of been killed by Demyx's true side had it not been for Donald and Goofy.

So you see "Sora's mouth" gets himself in a lot of trouble and he is not justified in his actions for making situations worse. Sora could of easily just kept his mouth shut and taken the blinders off and try to realize that all the members were not entirely bad and that they simply wanted to be complete and would do what ever means nessessary to acheive that.

 

1. He was killed in his own castle which Sora invaded. And what is this freaky stuff you speak of? Nothing terrible would have happened if everything would have been left to go its normal course.

2. If Xigbar was so intent on killing Sora, he would have simply let the heartless kill him. Xigbar saved him. Or did you forget the whole scenario all together?

3. Xaldin was one jacked up mofo... but he never intended to do anything that wasn't reversable. Probably the most justifiable death of them all.

4. Not killed by Sora...

5. Not killed by Sora...

6. Not killed by Sora...

7. Gave Sora several warnings of things whitch threatened him. Sora approached him when his back was turned. Not the nicest guy. Sora runs into his room to kill him! Assasination? You bet... Also, all along Sora said he was fighting to save his friends. But he tracks down Saix after he saved Riku and Kairi. Making Sora a hypocrite.

8. The most jacked up member of the bunch... yet the only one Sora felt sorry for... What????

9. You cannnot justify this one period. Sora pulled a weapon on him both times, and threatened him the second. Demyx only attacked him to liberate his true disposition, never intended to kill him. Afterwards, Sora ignores the fact that his friends were in danger of being killed, and calls out the rest of the organization. In other words, Sora wanted to kill Demyx.

10. Attacked out of nowhere? Our court case determined something unique about Luxords actions on Pirates Cove... namely, that he actually did break the curse. For good. Is it that unnusual that he broke a curse? The second time they battle, Sora basically goes into his room to kill him. A simple act of murder.

11. Marly was a bad dude... however, Marluxia was always honest and straight forward, even when he was manipulating him. Marluxia gave him several chances to leave without battleing him. But Sora went all, "LEEROOOOYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!" on him. And tracked him down to kill him. Even after all his friends were rescued. And an opportunity to fix his memories was presented.

12. Minor detail, Sora Keyblades her during thier first meeting... She also tells him to leave several points, and that he really didn't want to save Namine. She warned him off... but Sora went "LEEROOOOYYYYY!!!" on her too...

13. Techinically... Sora did kill Roxas...

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