Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

Discussion in 'Kingdom Hearts HD II.5 ReMIX' started by Princess Celestia, Dec 30, 2007.

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Was Sora justified in destroying the Organization?

  1. Yes he was

    114 vote(s)
    36.9%
  2. No he wasn't

    151 vote(s)
    48.9%
  3. I dont know, dont ask me this question.

    44 vote(s)
    14.2%
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  1. Repliku Chaser

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    The only one I think Sora acted somewhat harsh to was Demyx and he's the only one I see that Sora might have been able to communicate with on any level. Of course, he was stuck with orders which made him stay there. Sora didn't say anything -that- bad to force him to stay there. Demyx was in the way. He's the only one though I feel Sora acted at all harshly to and had he said 'Demyx, why do you stay with the Organization because you clearly don't fit in?' things might have turned out different. Of course, then Demyx might have been killed by the Org for betrayal as Axel was running away from them and was nearly taken out by Saix.

    Point comes down to none of the others had reasons to stand in his way, play mind games on him etc, and expect him to do anything else. Demyx is the only one Sora maybe could have gone in another direction but again, both Sora and Demyx had reasons to do that fight other than just the mere taunts both threw at each other. Also, Demyx did fight Sora earlier and stole the Olympus Stone so give Sora a break. Both Sora and Demyx could have done things differently.

    All of the others who Sora had to go against was justified ultimately and truly Demyx's case was understandable too, though sad.
     
  2. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

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    Hey Reps... its good to cross swords with you again...

    Demyx never intended to kill Sora... but Sora had intended to kill Demyx. And what Sora said that was that bad is what he said after that... He said he would rather take on Org XIII, than save humans who were in danger of being killed. Thats a blatant murderer, with no regard to human life.

    What Sora says is a window into his heart. He has one which has a strong unnatural hatred for nobodies. A hatred which exceeds his love for people...

    'Nuff said...
     
  3. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

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    Nope... there were no nobodies on that occation... there were buckets full of shadows though...
     
  4. P Banned

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    Xemnas: Willingly gave into the darkness, convinced others too also. Unleashed a PLAGUE OF HEARTLESS OVER THE WORLDS in order to sait his appitite for information. Oh, and locked his mentor in Nothing. All in all, not a very nice guy. He ran the org and made the plans. Had complete control over everything that went on, ruled the Org with an Iron fist. Justifed.

    Xiggy: See above.

    Xaldy: Brought new meaning to the words "Anger therapist."

    Saix: Yeah, Sora ran into his room and killed him. AFTER his death warrent was signed. Also, Saix had no desire to help Sora. "I tire of these charades"

    Demyx: Actually, I recall that it was symultanious the first time as far as weapons go. But Sora was trying to regain a stol- I mean Borrowed without asking stone. Justified first attack
    Demyx appeared in front of Sora and Sora trash talked him for a bit. This is what I don't get. How come the Organization can put him down, but as soon as he does it back, it is "OMG!!! EVUL!"? Sora is allowed a bit of trash talk, considering the circumstances. Also, Demyx attacked him first. Sora summoned the keyblade on sight, which doesn't seem to be too bad of a thing when you take into account that for the last year or so of his life, he had guys in black cloaks throw themselves at him trying to kill him. And when he got confused, he relaxed his guard. That's when Demyx attacked. Justified

    Luxord: He appeared, summoned a heartless on Sora's ass and then called a treaty. Then summoned the heartless; AGAIN! He initiated all action on Sora. Sora killed him to keep his friends safe. Justified

    Marluxia: This guy was Evil. He kept a little girl captive and tormented her. He killed his own kind and manipulated Sora's memories. He didn't even do it for a heart. He did it for power.

    Larxane: She was a right pain to Sora. She tormented him and taunted a little girl. She screwed with Repliku and was a horrid person and a worse nobody.
     
  5. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

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    You fail to understand Xemnas' character design... Seriously... you do...

    You underestimate Xigbars intelligence...

    Xaldin... yeah...

    Another misinterpretation of the lines... I'll prove it to you in court.

    He never returned his weapon, and relaxed his gaurd to taunt... yeah... nice guy huh? And you miss the point... the point isn't what was said prior to the fight, but after and thats what reveals whats in Sora's heart... although before the fight is pretty bad on its own!

    Didn't we discuss this already? It was to break the curse... THere are still ghost Pirates on the level even after Barbosa is killed... the curse needed to be broken to finality...

    Marly wasn't the org... in fact, he was against the Org, as was Larxie.

    Even so... they weren't that bad. They gave him plenty of opportunities to escape, even with Namine.
     
  6. water mage Kingdom Keeper

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    Originally posted by Pika_power
    Might I correct you on something concerning Demyx. Your reply about the other members trash talking Sora, is an exception to Demyx and some other members like Axel. Demyx simply appeared in Hollow Bastion and acted friendly to Sora for he knew Roxas was present in Sora's body. It was Donald who began the confrontation and Sora followed suit which made Demyx act in a mocking manner by jumping slightly and waving his hands in a jeering method for he didn't want that comment to affect him. Then Sora clearly put him down by saying he could not fight while Donald added to that. Demyx probaly felt insulted and gave Sora a warning or some needed advice not to judge anyone by appearance. Sora then retailated by bringing forth his key blade therefore attempting to assault Demyx.

    He was clearly not justified for doing that. Demyx then backed in place, turned around and talked to himself out loud giving Sora another chance to insult him. Demyx turned to face them afterwards and told them that the organization did have hearts and not to be mad at him. Donald caused Demyx to call his bluff and showed his true self that made Sora speechless. In conclusion, Sora bites off more than he can chew and deserves to get his butt handed to him when he opens his mouth and makes situations worse.
     
  7. Destined Working for WDW

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    Shall I post my thoughts on this ICSP, or are they over the heads of a number of members?
     
  8. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

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    Go for it... I liked you angle...

    If they don't get it, they'll just ignore it.
     
  9. Destined Working for WDW

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    Here goes My justification of Sora's actions and Org 13 with parallels to WW2:

    Shades says: (11:28:48 PM)
    heartless are similar to Nazi germany because they seem to not care how much destruction that they make as long as they are able to consume anything. In that regard you could classify Ansem as a version of Hitler, leading the forces to battle.

    those who are created and devoid of life, or in this sense hearts, are the nobodies, which we know the germans viewed as the jewish community.

    the organization members were trying to get back their own 'identity' / hearts anyway they could even if it wasn't the kosher way. But if you follow this line of thought, you can't blame them for wanting to be whole, the same way we couldn't

    sora = childhood innocence

    sora, kairi, riku could be all representations of the innocence of the world, wanting to see more while remaining devoid of the problems of the world. following this pattern, you could say that Destiny Island is a representation of the US isolationism during the beginning years of WW2, and the attack on DI as pearl harbor

    which thrusts sora, kairi and riku into the war, and out of the innocence.

    the last part was a bit of a stretch but it works. i'm not saying that FDR is Mickey

    Mickey's path through kingdom hearts is similar to the protagonists journey in the Allegory of the Cave, where one man leaves the world of darkness in search of an answer and returns to try and rescue others.

    now in this sense, you could say that Mickey's journey from the castle, into the world of darkness is the progression to knowing the truth of what is going on, and his attempt to try and save both SRK and Ansem are his attempt to righting his personal balance.

    Similar to the Allies.

    ICSP:
    In order to understand how video game companies write stories, you must first understang japanese culture... and one thing about japanese culture, is they are very self centered with thier fiction...

    I'm giving you a hint to fill that plothole BTW...
    Someone is bloody Japan...

    Shades says: (11:44:34 PM)
    riku.

    ICSP says: (11:44:40 PM)
    You think?

    But Japan was allied with the nazi's... *facepalm* Riku was allied with Darkness!

    aka the heartless!

    the struggle between sora and riku could be the representation of us and japan's embargo

    riku goes to the darkside, thinking that what he's doing is right

    ICSP says: (11:46:23 PM)
    and even tries to destroy Sora, even becomes a pawn of Ansem!

    Shades says: (11:46:30 PM)
    and then with the end, sora being able to 'pull riku back'
    the pacific theatre and treaty

    ICSP says: (11:46:55 PM)
    however, since WWII, Japan and the US have enjoyed great friendship, aka, mutual economic success!

    Well... at least until the last 5 years...

    Shades says: (11:47:40 PM)
    however, you asked if the organization was justified
    they were doing what they needed to do to survive, similar to the jews of the time

    ICSP says: (11:48:13 PM)
    yes...

    ICSP says: (11:48:24 PM)
    so... in effect, they were justified...

    Shades says: (11:48:31 PM)
    in a sense

    sees interesting now to think of Castle Obivion as a concentration camp...
    The purpose of the castle, was to strip the identity of all who enter. Similar to a Concentration camp.
     
  10. In explicit Angst Gummi Ship Junkie

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    No. The organization just wanted their hearts back.
     
  11. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

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    That is exactly what he said... in a more fleshed out, over analyzed way...
    Sorry... but I liked your arguement...
     
  12. P Banned

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    Interesting. But I see a fault.

    The Organization had complete control over the Heartless. They had the ability to lead them and get them to do as they wanted with sheer will. The Jews were destroyed by the Nazis, not the innocents. Nice parallels, but I don't think the Organization fits in too well.

    Now onto the main stuff.

    ICSP, set me right on Xemnas' character. I see him as DiZ sees him, as the disillusioned master views his pupil.

    How does saying Xigbar did the same as Xemnas, thus deserves the same fate underestimating his intellect?

    Do you agree with me on Xaldin?

    As for Saix. I don't see how that can really be interpretted differently. Oh, and whose turn is it in court currently?

    Luxord tried to break the curse? The group had to sink the chest deep into the ocean afterwards. When did it say that the curse was broken earlier? After all, I cannot see Jack hurling perfectly good gold into the ocean.

    About Demyx. Sora is not Jesus. He is not meant to be a perfect character. He has darkness in his heart. Fine, he liked killing Demyx a tad too much. He quickly snapped out of it. He may have taunted for a bit, but when it is compared to robbi- I mean borrowing from the gods without permission, I think the true state of things is clear.
     
  13. Destined Working for WDW

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    That was the one area that doesn't fit in my opinion as well. But one could argue that the organization maintains control over the heartless in the comparison because they had the the support of the free world. In this sense the jewish community was destroyed by Nazi Germany, they were broken searching for a way to be whole again.
     
  14. Styx That's me inside your head.

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    If Xemnas became whole again (read: become Xehanort again) then all the misery, including more sinister research on the heart and the possible spamming of tons of Heartless, would start over again. It doesn't take a genius to realize that.

    Sora could have easily taken on the Heartless. Furthermore...
    Sounds like someone intent on killing to me.

    Xigbar saved him, then put a freakin' gun to Sora's head from afar as the battle started. Sora never intended to strike the first blow.
    Or have you forgotten that whole scenario?

    Things that Sora already knew of.

    Approached. Not killed. Not attacked. Approached.

    Sora didn't go in there to kill him. He didn't even know he'd meet him there.
    But when he did, Saïx stood there with a claymore in his hand.

    King Mickey wasn't found yet.

    Threatened. And unlike Marluxia and Larxene, Sora would have probably given him the chance to leave, considering that an army of Heartless was about to invade his favourite world and he had better things to do. Thus, Sora wanted to scare him off. But Demyx can't feel fear, so he attacked.

    So if someone attacks you without having the intention to kill you, it's all good?

    Sora calling out to the rest of the Organization wasn't the smartest move, I give you that.

    Sora enters a room exploring the castle. How was he supposed to know that it was Luxord's? I don't remember him revealing his weapons before that scene. Luxord pops out, creates a battlefield and they do battle.

    Yeah. Because we all know that Marluxia would have just let Sora leave.

    A complete stranger, wearing the same hooded coat as some nutcase you just fought appears before you inside a castle where more than a few things are off. Confirming that she's indeed with the nutcase you just fought. I'd call you an idiot if you didn't draw your weapon.
    Also, as far as I remember, Larxene knocked Sora to the ground some way or another and he didn't fight back (yet).

    Maybe you should learn to read between the lines. Then you'd realize that that was a mere trick to keep Sora from giving up(granted, he's easy to taunt) and that she never really meant to warn Sora at all. But of course you knew that. You just try to make half-baked points and hope I don't see through them.

    Maybe he did. Should we count that?
     
  15. water mage Kingdom Keeper

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    Here is what I don't understand. Why are you guys putting real life occurances with this video game? That would change everyone's minds completly and can't be compared to. I don't know how much more this can be discussed?
     
  16. Destined Working for WDW

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    Explain to me ONE thing that can't be referenced back to some historically context.
     
  17. water mage Kingdom Keeper

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    Well for one thing it's a video game and fictional so my views about Sora not being justified for defeating Organization XIII do make a lot sense based on my earlier posts compared to what my views would be in reality when the mention of Bin Laden for example was referred to in this post. However I will not get into that.
     
  18. P Banned

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    In KH, or in general?
     
  19. Destined Working for WDW

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    Anything.

    Water mage: I'm merely stating the fact that a number of media mediums, including stories, are derived from events in our own history.

    Am i saying that this is 100%, No. This is just my ideology and you are free to have your own justification.

    ICSP asked, I answered. It wasn't something he heard before, I posted. If i offended anyone, I apologize.

     
  20. water mage Kingdom Keeper

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    I understand your reasoning and I enjoy reading all of the posts about both sides of the issue. I simply wanted to point out that in real life I would not be for anything that is evil, but in the game that changes everything completly based on the organization that simply wanted to become mere humans and not all powerful lords. *LOL*
     
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