Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

Good Sir or Lady, you can't see it-but I'm applauding you right now. That was probably the best plot comparison I've ever seen.

 

...

 

Jeez, Repliku. ._.


Anyway, Sora did what he had to do. Xaldin stole Beast's Rose, and tried to kiddnap Belle.. if I remember correctly. Demyx.. meh, he was confusing Sora, so he destroyed Demyx to help his friends fight off the Heartless. Besides that, I dont remember any other member not starting the fight. So basically he either was defending himself, or saving others. Also, he was never like, "OMG! Lets go destroy that Org. untill there nothing but a pasty residue on the castle wall! :D". He was more like: "*sigh* Looks like we have to fight somemore!"

 

It's a close call. But even though Org XIII is gone, there are still Nobodies like them who will try the same thing.>.<

 

Watch the battle with Demyx at hallow bastion again. Listen to everything Sora said before and after that fight.

He stops just short of saying pasty residue.

He is excited that he killed a member of the Org, not remorsful or "*Sigh*" 'Looks like we have to fight somemore!'"

Not only that, Demyx didnt want to fight him, but Sora instigated it.

 

Okay, Demyx had a bad death. But he was messing with Sora. Also, he did steal the Olympus stone. Demyx at most was a grunt with personality.

Besides, it is the whole Org we are debating, not just Demyx. Name one other who did not deserve to die.

 

No one is truly justified in anything they do. They just lap it justice when they can't think of a better excuse to call their praticular act. So do I think Sora was just...no...but I don't think the Organization was just either in wanting to gain hearts in that way.

 

Watch the video, Demyx didnt mess with Sora. He tried to befriend Sora. When Sora showed aggresion, Demyx coward before him, explaining he didnt want to fight. Then Sora showed more aggresion, Demyx at first wanted to run, but as Sora kept belittling and threatening, he turned and faught.

Demyx stole the Olympus stone to confront Hades. Wich isnt a bad thing.



Org members who didnt deserve to die? Luxord, Xigbar and Saix, come to mind as they didnt commit any crimes until after Sora declared war on them.

 

Demyx wasn't trying to befriend Sora... Where do you get that from? He was trying to get Roxas to come back and do the work for the Org. Sora was rude there when Demyx acted like he was going to chicken out, but really that is the ONLY time Sora instigated anything and after experiencing Xaldin's coldness and other things, and learning about the Org and some of their schemes, I can't say many people would be that different.

However, where do you get the idea Luxord, Xigbar and Saix weren't doing things wrong? You still fail to see that they had been planning on and carried out parts of these plans for a long time. Demyx was -not- important to the Org. He was just a gopher. Where do you even see that he was given any task that really had a need? The Org were setting up Sora all along once Roxas ran off and wasn't going to do what he was told. Vexen even hinted on that in CoM which is a whole year earlier, that they did not -need- Sora anymore. The Org factions both tried to take out Sora and Riku once they realized they could not be controlled so the purpose of having either was a threat. Roxas was a solution and Roxas ran away. They planned on using Sora from the beginning, but Roxas showing up changed that, hence the name 'Key of Destiny'.

Sora only -instigated- Demyx. There is no other person he did a thing to that wasn't what any other person would have in his shoes because he -had to-. If he hated Nobodies so much he would never have tried to work with Axel and would have attacked him instead of hearing him out at all; especially after Axel kidnapped Kairi. Really, try to back this stuff up because the only thing that happened after Demyx's death were schemes coming to fruition and being revealed for the 2nd part of the story. None of the Org ever said at all in any part of the story that they were mad or threatened or reacting because of Demyx's death. They just kept on trucking with their plans.

 

Manipulating Sora in CoM was Marluxia's idea. He was going to use Sora in a coupe. The Org had no intention of using Sora. Its even noticable. Larxene, even said "Why do we need Sora again?" several times. It wasnt until Axel said "To overthrough the Organization" did she change the subject.

Demyx may have been a pawn of the Org, but Sora so eagerly killed him when he was being friendly, that was Sora declaring war on the Org.

You can even see that in the FM+ vids, Xenmas wanted to use Castle Oblivion to unlock something from his past. What? I dont know, but it probably has to do with BbS.

 

You do realize that Sora, Riku and DiZ etc did not destroy the Castle Oblivion and that Xemnas could just have gone back there anyway, right? The only thing that they did was DiZ and Riku took Namine and Sora with them so that Sora could be safe. They all knew it would not be safe there to remain.

Also, Vexen said they didn't need Sora anymore, and it was a direct reference to Roxas, though shielded and Axel slew him before he could say 'why' they didn't need him. Marluxia's plot was to assassinate Xemnas, but Vexen was also doing things. Vexen was also plotting things and there was nothing showing that Lexaeus, who tried to get Riku to turn to Darkness, and Zexion who tried to destroy Riku after as well, were not working for the Org still and held the ideals. Zexion even tells Vexen in an FM flashback that he did -not- want involved in investigating Xemnas or to get in any schemes and Vexen mocked him for it.

You keep using Demyx as a reason, and yet nearly everyone says the way Sora treated Demyx was either out of line or darn near close. However, again, where did Sora do anything to anyone else? Yes, he egged on Demyx and everyone pretty well sees it, but he had his reasons at that point. One of the adorable wonderful things about KH is that the characters -make mistakes- and are not infallible. Sora made a few mistakes in KH too, and so did Riku. They aren't perfect, but the characters all try their best to deal with what is thrown at them. This still in no way proves Sora is some sort of murderer and went out of his way to assassinate the Nobodies.

 

Well, I just rewatched that scene (is it weird that i love watching cutscenes?)
And, Demyx did not try to befriend Sora, if anything he tried to avoid confrontation and cowered.
He did not 'explain that he didn't want to fight' he merely turned his back from Sora and muttered "I told them they picked the wrong guy."
If Demyx really wanted to run, nothing was stopping him. It wasn't like Sora had the magical ability to stop the Dark Corridors from working, Demyx used them to get there and he could have used them to leave. And further more, Sora didn't keep 'belittling and threatening' him. They merely pointed out that since he was a Nobody that meant he had no heart, in which Demyx said 'We do too have hearts, don't be mad' and then Donald said 'You can't Fool us!"
Then Demyx fully turns around and says 'Silence Traitor" and initiated the fight

(Above mostly posted for those who want a refresher of the scene without having to look for it)

Another thing that should be considered is that Sora and Co were under pressure. A heartless war was breaking out and they were running to go and help their friends when Demyx showed up. Sure they acted harsh in the beginning, but, like i said, they were under pressure and stress of the situation. They wanted to deal with the Demyx and go and help their friends.

I also agree with what Repliku was saying, it is foolish to think that the attacks they made during the 2nd half of the game wasn't planned. It wasn't like 'oh kay, now you guys just go run and spread havoc, have fun'. It is clear that the Organization had made plans before hand. Their plans to become whole beings has been proven to be in effect for longer than we are led to believe. Now i can't comment on the CoM aspect of things specifically (as it has been a while since i played the game and/or watched the Re:CoM cutscenes) but from the sounds of it, there were hints there too that this plan had been in the long run.

 

At this point, Sora didnt give a rats tail about his friends. After he calls out the rest of the Organization, stomps his feet, beats his chest and everything. He wanted to stay there and fight, not help his friends.

Donald had to calm him down "Dont antagonize them!"

Then Goofy reminded him that he was tring to save his friends. If Sora got his way, more Org members would have challenged him on the spot. While he was battling them, then some of the Hallow Bastion native could have died, rather than be saved by Sora.

Also, CoM is a mute point. Sora had no idea what happened there. And Marluxia masterminded it, A TRAITOR TO THE ORG! It was the Organization who saved Sora. They helped him, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

How did they help him? By turning his memories into mush. And trying to kill And he so annoyed by that dork Demyx that he wanted to call them out and don't you remember before the cutscene. He disobeyed the king so he can help his friends as he promised Leon to help.

 

Axel spoiled Marluxia's plan by freeing Namine. Namine told Sora it was a trap, so Marluxia didnt turn Sora into a vegatable. Axel being loyal to the Org.

If he was so concerned about his friends, the scene would have ended like this.

Demyx: "NO WAYYY, AWE" (Dies)
Sora: "Ok, hes out of the way, lets go help or friends!"
Donald and Goofy: *Nodding in agreement*

Three heros charge off to save the day.

WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED
Demyx: "NO WAYYYY, AWE" (Dies)
Sora: *Stands his ground, stomps his feet* "Anyone from the Organization who would like to be next!"
Donald: "Hey, Sora. Dont antagonize them"
Goofy: "We gotta help our friends out first"
Sora: *Scratching his head, feeling guilty that he would rather kill something than save his friends lives* "Oh, sorry"
Donald: "Then lets go!"
Mickey interupts them

Donald and Goofy took the initiative to save the friends. Sora would have been quite content to be all like "OMG! Lets go destroy that Org. untill there nothing but a pasty residue on the castle wall!" (I like that quote, thanks Orion)

I know villainizing Sora is not the best way to go about it.

But Sora HATED the Org. Sora hated the Org more than he loved his friends. That is shameful.

This is why I am villainizing him, because I cant stand for injustice.

 

Axel was -surviving- with both Vexen and Marluxia doing things that they should not have been. He was just as much out for his own self-preservation as he was to being 'loyal' to the Org. Axel was a wild card and everyone should know that.

As for Sora's action there, he was -frustrated- and wanted to confront the Org and get the games over with. Who can blame him after all he went through with the Dark Council and Ansem? He did not want to play around and just let the Org, who were KILLING people do whatever and got mad and distracted. If he was so hell bent on this path, he'd have told Goofy and Donald to stuff it and continued to call them out. Also, there was a logic in backing off that yeah he was frustrated, but against all the Org members there, he was out numbered.

Who would not want to just stop the chase, the game, the plot that the villains are putting against you and get rid of the foes before something else happens? Of course he wants his friends back and once Goofy says so with ONE line, Sora is there. He had a moment of loss of control. I want to know anyone who would not. The Org were the wrong ones in there. If they wanted Sora's 'help' to do something other than using him to kill Heartless they helped spread and all, they surely could have asked him and he would have done so. You also keep forgetting that Roxas obviously wanted nothing more to do with the Org either. How much proof do you need to see that the Org aren't these neutral guys going around and all? You know, people without emotions commit heinous crimes in tandem and we call them Serial Killers. Think about it. They had no remorse for any action they did, all except Axel and Roxas. That says something. Technically all of the Org members were psychopathic. This does not mean they could not survive as other 'psychopaths' do that don't turn into Serial Killers but the point here is that they were NOT. Sora wasn't going out of his way to have Nobody bias. He was trying to stop them and at the same time find his friends.

Your points of saying they ever asked him for help etc have all been refuted. There really is nothing redeeming the Org members and saying they would do anything else other than what they were. They had planned this scheme for years and were doing it whether Roxas or Sora was going to be used to accomplish it by ensuring the Hearts would get to the fake Kingdom Hearts looming in TWTNW. If this plan had not been worked on for some time, it wouldn't have been there and been so near complete. I'm sure in 358/2 Days we are going to learn why Roxas didn't want to remain there more. The point here is that the Org could have taken a different route at any time and Sora, who talks to the villains to try to change them regularly, would have been malleable. The Org however was not changing. It would not. They were stuck on their path and that was that. There is never a time when Saix, Xaldin, or Xemnas even show at all they would care to change. Demyx, perhaps. Xigbar...debatable. Luxord ...I don't have a clue, but the three at least that seemed the worst also had the strongest impacts. Not one though -ever- told Sora they wanted to change and not do what they were, or Riku for that matter, other than Axel.

 

Repliku, wouldn't the Orginization be Sociopathic, since they don't feel? Correct me if I'm wrong though, I don't have my Psychology class right now, so I might be getting my terms mixed up.

 

Yeah. Sora got a little carried away. Like bashing the computer and plus he wanted to save Kairi.

 

Yes Sociopath is the more 'proper' term used in psychology than psychopath. Sometimes people also refer to it as Antisocial Personality Disorder, but ASPD can include some other things too. There are some common things to determine whether someone is a sociopath. Here's a list from a psychology book I have that they refer to. Psychologists will actually give long drawn out tests but here's some simple things common people can analyze.
1. A person who is sociopathic often makes others around him/her feel sorry for the person.
2. The person also tends to make others around feel worried or afraid.
3. The person often makes people around feel that they owe him or her and expects favors.
4. Other people often feel 'used' by this person.
5. People around this person feel genuinely that this person has no real caring for them or depth.
6. They take a lot from others and expect it while doling out very little to others in compensation.
7. They lie without remorse and take from others.
8. They guilt trip others and make them feel guilty which enables them to manipulate people.
9. They take advantage of people's kindness and generosity.
10. They get easily bored and need stimulation. This boredom can result in them doing some heinous deeds that others find very wrong but the person just shrugs it off.
11. They do not take blame for what they do and constantly pass the buck on something else.

Of course, a Nobody is going to be the extreme strength of this because they have No Heart at all and can mimic things and recall when they did, but have a void there. There are many sociopaths amongst us who do not care about others or have real consciences. It doesn't mean these people do not know the law and also think it's there to protect them as much as anyone else and logic their way through lives. Some who are heading down the path of 'serial killer' are cruel at young ages doing things to other children and animals. Also, there is generally some signs of instability in the family or something that kicks them down a road of doing acts for which they know is wrong but have no feelings for others to care about it one way or the other.

In the really real world, people are cautioned to stay away from those who harm us in such ways and to not get emotionally attached. The ranges of how many sociopaths exist may be anywhere from 1% to much higher and the levels of sociopath behavior also differs, so though some people will have traits and all, it doesn't mean the person is an absolute sociopath. Going through the list I just wrote up, I think we can determine the Nobodies were pretty darn psychopathic. I'm sure others could fill in this list with even more examples than I've provided. These are just ones I recall off the top of my head at this early hour.

1. A person who is sociopathic often makes others around him/her feel sorry for the person.
* It seems a LOT of people felt sorry for the Nobodies including outside of the game. Xemnas lays on the guilt thick. Saix plays words with it and others try to gain Sora's sympathy to help them in their plights, which are up to no good.
2. The person also tends to make others around feel worried or afraid.
* If anyone can tell me that Marluxia, Saix, Vexen and Larxene were not all Sadists in their ways, and Xemnas and others were not going around trying to make others feel afraid, I'd be surprised.
3. The person often makes people around feel that they owe him or her and expects favors.
* The Org seemed to feel everyone who lived owed them their Hearts so they could exist. They also expected Roxas/Sora to do things for them but in reality he owed them nothing.
4. Other people often feel 'used' by this person.
* Roxas felt used by them. Namine was controlled by them BUT Namine also lured Sora there merely because she did not want to be alone, even Axel wanted out because he had more depth than that. Sora and Riku were being used by them. Riku Replica was used by them probably the worst.
5. People around this person feel genuinely that this person has no real caring for them or depth.
* Sora could tell in CoM that Larxene, Marluxia and others didn't care at all. So could Riku upon meeting them, despite all of their over dramatic acting. In KH2, Demyx was called out and his attitude changed and he wasn't running away anymore. Saix even pretty well declares they remember what it was like having Hearts and know how to hurt others.
6. They take a lot from others and expect it while doling out very little to others in compensation.
* They obviously took enough from Roxas to make him want out. Xemnas really took a lot even from the other Nobodies and they all were doing things to each other in CoM as well.
7. They lie without remorse and take from others.
* Saix lies so plain as day it's pathetic. They all were laying on acts, other than Namine and Axel in KH2 (can't say they weren't acting in CoM of course).
8. They guilt trip others and make them feel guilty which enables them to manipulate people.
* They were doing this to Beast, Sora, Roxas, Riku etc. The plot of KH2 and CoM pretty well shows they try to guilt trip them, confuse them and soften them up to manipulate them.
9. They take advantage of people's kindness and generosity.
* They kept pushing Sora and using his kindness against him such as telling him Riku was gone and that they kidnapped Kairi.
10. They get easily bored and need stimulation. This boredom can result in them doing some heinous deeds that others find very wrong but the person just shrugs it off.
* All of the Nobodies went out of their way to do dramatic displays, seemed bored and amused at other people's expenses etc. It's seen all through the game as they confuse, baffle, make people upset or sad.
11. They do not take blame for what they do and constantly pass the buck on something else.
* Xemnas certainly and the top 6 all did not really seem to care about the fact they harmed others, etc. They just want what they want back and that's that. Not a single one of them expresses any remorse and just puts off things when confronted or dodges the issue. It's all about each Nobody and that's what matters.

The only Nobodies I saw really with -depth- were Axel (who seemed very empathic to Roxas and did not want to be as he was, developing a conscience because he did feel things from Roxas) and Namine (who though she doesn't seem remorseful over what she did to Riku Replica, has ties to Sora and Roxas and feels genuine for them.) So if Nobodies actually get links possibly to people who can remind them of their Hearts or had ties to them in some way and still cared, it seems to help them if they want it to. They may have been able to be helped, but they chose not to. Therefore, Sora was justified to me.

 

Repliku, you make a strong case... most Org members did deserve what they got.

But, do you think that all socialpaths deserve to die. Even if they dont kill unless they are attacked? (Demyx)

You still have to sell me on this one. Sora was out of line with Demyx.