Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

Discussion in 'Kingdom Hearts HD II.5 ReMIX' started by Princess Celestia, Dec 30, 2007.


Was Sora justified in destroying the Organization?

  1. Yes he was

    114 vote(s)
  2. No he wasn't

    151 vote(s)
  3. I dont know, dont ask me this question.

    44 vote(s)
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  1. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

    Dec 20, 2007
    I stated in several spots before, Xaldin and Xemnas were the only two Org members who I think were evil even when unprovoked.

    No, they didnt wag war to destroy him, they waged war in the sence, "Well, he killed that sap Demyx, and showed us he wont kill heartless to help us, lets make him kill heartless, by putting him in situations where he would be a punk not to kill them."

    They made the decision to elimanate Sora, when Sora was on a warpath to destroy the entire castle. At that point, he had already killed Demyx, Xaldin, Xigbar and Luxord. (Wait, I'm not sure if he killed Luxord yet, so dont use that against me.)

    Not to mention, he had already killed Larxene, Marluxia. And tried to kill Vexen, and Axel.

    By this point, he was a walking guilitine for nobodies. If I was in thier situation, I would want him eliminated too.

    They were using him? What, by letting him do something he would do anyway? Is that using, or is it observing?

    The loyal org members were only using Riku as an insurance against Marluxia and Sora. It was a bit underhanded, but they were not abusing him.

    They just wanted him to utilize his power of darkness to a fuller degree so he would have a better chance against Sora and Marluxia.

    Also, think from thier perspective, to them, submitting to darkness probably didnt seem that bad, they all did it. And they gained supernatural powers.

    Also, there is no reason to think that Riku would have lost free will if he utilized all the darkness in him as they were intending to have him do. He utilized all his darkness when battling Roxas, even to the point where he turned back into his "Ansem" form. Even then he kept free will.

    I really dont feel sorry for DiZ. I think it was underhanded that they locked him in the World of Darkness, but they could have done worse to him. Maybe the lesser Org members were protecting him from Xenmas, who I do believe is a bad dude.
  2. P Banned

    Oct 5, 2007
    New Zealand
    Not harming Riku? Lexaeus sent Repliku after him, then tried to kill him! Finally, he tried to wash his body with darkness, followed by Zexion doing the same with light.

    Also. Xaldin and Xemnas being evil even unprovoked? Saix seemed Evil enough too, along with Larxane, Xigbar, and too a lesser extent, Luxord.. Also, they were the heads of the Org. If the rest follow him, then Sora is forced to fight them. (also, Demyx appeared right in front of him, clearly given instructions to fight. Sora killed him in the heat of battle. Demyx was hardly lying on the ground, begging for mercy, while Sora, with an evil grin on his face, walked right up and finished him off.)

    No one said it was wrong to fight the Germans when Hitler was in command. (or if someone did, it is not widely thought) This is much the same thing, except the original 6 chose to loose their hearts.

    Also, why send Nobodies after Sora in Hollow bastion? I remember trying to stop nobodies breaking a gate.

    Face it, despite how "cute" or how interesting a "personality" Demyx has, he asked for a fight. Also, Demyx certainly was going all out.
  3. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

    Dec 20, 2007
    Its not like the Org unleased all its power like they did Sora. Maybe you forgot, it was Ansem who is the last boss, not Zexion.

    Did Demyx ever ask for a fight? No, he commited to one, didnt ask for one. Remember, Sora was taunting him, even when he turned to run.
  4. P Banned

    Oct 5, 2007
    New Zealand
    I know Ansem is the last boss in Com. But in Destiny islands, Zexion tryed to kill Riku with light, then he did the whole "Darkness awaken!" thing and slashed Zexion.

    Okay, I have knowingly made you my enemy, then I appear in front of you when you try to get somewhere important. Sora was never the reasoner, but it was normal for him to attack. He attacked Axel in COM as well, notifying them that he was unstable. Also he had Roxas inside him, meaning that he had a hatred of the Org. Demyx knew all this, and still appeared in front of him. Also, Demyx never turned to Run, and Sora taunted him until he turned away, then asked donald what was happening. I am certain if Demyx had said "okay okay, back off, I am not here for a fight." Sora would not have fought. Hell, Axel did this. No pain to him from Sora.

    I think Demyx may not have wanted a fight, but he was sent by the org to have one, proving that the Org was trying to harm Sora.

    Also, I did not really understand when you said "Its not like the Org unleased all its power like they did Sora." Please elaborate.

    Would you be so kind to reply to the points I made in my previous post? Thanks.
  5. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

    Dec 20, 2007
    *cracks knuckles*

    Repliku was sent by Vexen during the first fight, it was only to test him out. On the second battle, Repliku attacks Riku on his own intiative, thinking, "If I can take out the original, I can be the only one!" or something like that.

    Saix was cold, but you need to remember, he was provoked. He had just seen another Org member die, and also was basically spit in his face when Sora told him he would rather not kill heartless if he knew it would help the Org. If someone told me he would rather see me die and even go as far as to risk other peoples lives to acomplish this, yeah, I'd be a jerk too. Prior to this, Saix was borderline helpful to Sora.

    Larxene was a sadistic witch. But, you need to keep in mind, by the time she meets Sora, she had already betrayed the Org. In other words "she chose her side."

    Xigbar? We dont even see Xigbar (his hallow bastion cameo doesnt count) prior to Sora activly hunting down Org members in an attempt to take them down. I dont know how you can say he wasnt provoked.

    Luxord, see Xigbar.

    *Sigh* Why would Demyx want to harm thier "Key to Destiny?" That just doesnt seem logical to activly harm thier only hope so early in the game.) Also, Sora provoked the fight, Demyx turned to leave twice, but each time, Sora and Donald kept provoking him. Demyx probably stayed and fought because he knew Sora would track him down, like Sora did to the rest of the Org.

    Yeah, but what if the allies decided to kill off every German, or even just every Nazi, after WW2? That would be widely thought of as wrong. I doubt every Org member chose to lose thier heart.

    I doubt it was to kill everyone. Or else, why wouldn't they just warp them into the inside of town? It was more likely a test for Sora. Not right, but not evil.

    I never heard him say, "Hey Sora, lets fight!" Demyx was going all out in the second fight, but he didnt have a choice. See above.

    Did Zexion try to kill him? Or was he tring eliminate Riku's darkness, thus cutting off the main sorce of Riku's power, and nuetralizing a threat? By this point, they didnt need Riku as a weapon, so why not?

    To be honest, I have no idea why but I doubt it was to kill him, or even harm him. Why would the Org order Demyx to destroy thier last hope, it is not logical. We both agreed the Organization is logical.

    See above. I really dont think the Org tried to kill him at any piont. Lex was fighting all out. But I believe this was only to force Riku to his limit so he could use all his power of darkness and become even stronger.

    I believe Zexion was trying to neutralize Riku as by washing out the darkness from him, turing him into a normal 15 year old.

    Your welcome.
  6. P Banned

    Oct 5, 2007
    New Zealand
    Okay, Repliku ignored. (although you have to admit that cloning him was certainly enough to justify him trying to kill them)

    Okay, what Luxord diid was not exactly "striking back" at Sora. He was experimenting with the curse, and would have done it regardless of whether Sora dismissed Demyx or not.

    Let's get something straight here. Sora is an idiot. The only taunt was when he said Demyx could not fight. The things he said when Demyx turned away was to ask Donald "what this kook" was doing. Donald then reminded him about the heartless nature of them, and Sora said to himself, "No hearts!"

    Demyx only turned away once, the second was to compose himself and attack. Also, the taunting was fair enough. Demyx couldn't fight well, and he did attack Sora in the underworld with water. Sora was pissed, and told Demyx so.

    He gave Demyx a chance to run. When Demyx turned, Sora's keyblade vanished. Not to mention the death of Demyx was after Sora was told the Org was led by Xehanort's nobody. He already had lots of trouble from Xehanort's heartless. I think it is fair that once he knows this, and he knows that Demyx and Xaldin were part of the org, and that they were messing up the worlds, he puts two and two together and figures that they are his enemies. A theory they do nothing to debunk.

    But that did not happen, did it? Axel Surrendered, he did not die because of Sora, he died because his former friends cut him down. Besides, they all followed Xemnas, the makeshift Hitler, meaning Sora had little choice but to fight the Org, the makeshift Nazis.

    Okay, I can go with this. But Sora did not know it was a test. If they attack him, he is going to respond violently, no matter what the intentions of the Org are.

    It was kind of implied by appearing in front of him. He was not known to be a friend, and he attacked Sora before, test or not. Sora got the headstart and struck first. Perhaps not with the most honorable pre-fight speech, but you can understand why he attacked.

    Hah! Riku was the darkness. The light burned him. Also, can you see Zexion leaving him alone after his darkness is gone? Plus, leaving Riku there without any weapon is tantamount to killing him. Sorry, but I think on this point, I win.

    Another "test" perhaps? I think he was ordered to kill Sora. After all, what would happen afterwards?

    Demyx: Sorry Lord Xemnas, I kind of... well... Killed Sora.
    Xemnas: Oh, that is okay! I guess he was rather irritating, HO HO HO!

    ... No. If Demyx were to win, he would be going against the Org's orders, thus, like Larxane, he would be choosing his Own path. He is not stupid. He knew appearing in front of Sora would lead to a fight.

    It seems to me that unless the Org attempts to kill Sora and Riku, you consider them not deserving of death. Any attack on Sora/Riku is allowed to be taken Seriously. Unless they say "look Sora, this fight is only testing your abilities." then I consider it real enough, and a reason for Sora to go all out. How is Sora to tell the difference between "oh, he is toying with me" and "Oh crap, this is for real!" ?

    Tell me if I missed anything.
  7. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

    Dec 20, 2007
    We dont know that. Luxord may have been content watching Poker Stars as you dont see him for the first 75% of the game.

    OMG! LOL! I've said ever since I played KH1... *composes self* ok. Being an idiot is not an excuse to kill someone. *starts laughing again*

    Edit: I'm putting that one on my sig.

    If I tell someone he can fight well, and pull a weapon on him, I can only expect three reactions

    1 = He pleades for his life. Not very heroic of me.
    2 = H tries to defuse the tension in the air (which Demyx does)
    3 = He fights. Duh.

    If someone either does 1 or 2, and someone still gets killed, then there is a problem there. Someone is evil.

    I thought you had a point there, but... it never dissapears. Donald's staff vanishes though. But up until Demyx draws his weapon, you can still see the Keyblade.

    Good point about Xehanort's nobody and Xaldin.

    Axel did not surrender. He helped Sora because his plot to turn Sora into a Heartless failed, and he realized Sora was his only hope to defeat the Org. Ironic, that Sora so does not want to be used, but those who use him the most, Namine and Axel, end up being the ones he lets use him.

    Again I state, being an idiot is not an excuse. Being ignorant will not get you out of a murder trial, it might reduce the sentence, but your still going down for your crime.

    Wasnt everything Riku was tring to do in CoM to purge himself of the Darkness? He might have actually been tring to do him a favor if you think about it. And he still would have had the Soul Eater.

    Oh, and I get burned if I go out in the sun too long, does that mean the sun is something tring to kill me, and its justified if I destroy it and everything like it? No...

    What it means is, light burns, bright light burns fast. This is a fact.

    LOL, I think that would be a hilarious alternate ending. Square should do it, if you lose certain battles it shows a cutscene. That one would be great.

    Wait, I'm not following you. Are you saying Demyx tring to kill him? Or was it a test? I believe it was a spur of the moment thing, which Demyx would have regretted if he did win.

    I believe he had another mission, probably revolving around Roxas. He always talked about Roxas, perhaps he was Roxas' friend, and really wanted him back. His motive may not have been bad.

    No, I never said that. I'm tring to say, that all along thier was a less bloody alternative to what happened on the table. For example:

    Saix appears in Twilight Town, showing concern for Sora as he did. Sora ask what they are really tring to accomplish. Saix explains. Sora goes, "Ok, I'm going to be killing heartless anyways, just dont hurt anyone like you tried to do to beast ok." Saix aggrees, and tells the others that thier plan worked, and to restrain the heartless. A peacefull alternative to Kingdom Hearts 2.

    Perhaps the Organizations enigmatic approach is thier downfall. You will no doubt aggree that they do a lot of test, and they are led by scientists, who by trade cuduct experiments.

    And if they did let Sora know what was a test, and what was real, then he might not fight his hardest when he knows its a test. Its what scientist call, skewing the results.

    Well, you still havent got me to believe Saix was evil pre Demyx match.

    You made some exellent arguements though. I thought my sure that last combo would have you down.
  8. P Banned

    Oct 5, 2007
    New Zealand
    Okay, fine, have it your way. Luxord was watching poker Stars for 75% of the game. The point I was making was that doing research with the medallions does not really seem like a way to get back at Sora. I know Luxord is not going to go after him with a Claymore, but I find it hard to believe that whether "that irritating fool Demyx" (as I think he was known to the org) lived or died really made that much difference to Luxord's ethics. Anyway, if I annoy kill a friend of yours, then you go and do genetic experiments on my neighbors, I would say something is wrong with your sense of revenge.

    SCORE! I got Sig quoted! first time in my life!

    Back to the point though. I was saying that Sora did not get why Demyx was acting so exaggerated. Donald told him, then he exclaims his discovery like he invented the lightbulb.

    But he did not try to defuse the situation. At least not in my eyes. He turned away, muttered to himself, exaggeratedly rebutted Sora's statement, turns around, composes himself for the mission ahead, faces Sora and says in an overly cool voice "silence traitor. I am not saying that Sora did not fuel the fire, but in the end, Demyx was the one who lit the match.

    Also, if I mess with your Neighbor's garden, then appear in front of you when you are rushing to stop birds eating your vegetables, you will tell me off for messing with your neighbor's garden, and then will try to get me to leave your garden. (perhaps not the best analogy, so please do not reply if you can rip it to shreds...)

    Really? Gosh. I thought it went away. Ah well. Sora goes out of his fighting stance.

    Well with Namine, he gets his heart messed with, so yeah... Also she is half of Kairi, thus has a strong emotional hold over him.
    As for Axel... It seems when you go out in a burst of flame protecting someone, you are not exactly manipulating them, are you? Anyway, he helped Sora, he did not try to kill him.

    I mean he cannot tell when you are toying with him or actually fighting for real. If someone pulls a gun on you, then the first thing you will do (assuming you fight) will be to try to kill them, with anything to hand. You have no idea whether it is a toy, or loaded or anything, but you know the person holding it is unstable (in your eyes). You will go for the kill, right? Perhaps if you get them at your mercy then you will spare them, but Sora never really got this chance considering they keep fighting until they die.

    No, but if I lock you in a room with Magnifying glasses for walls, and you almost get burnt to a cinder, then you have a right to be annoyed at me, not the sun.

    Also, it was clearly hurting Riku. Besides, if you say Zexion is only trying to neutralize the threat Riku poses, surely he will not leave Riku with a weapon? All signs point to Zexion trying to kill Riku in that scene.

    heh. ;)

    It seemed as if he was sent to kill Sora. I do not know why he would be sent, but it seems as if he was. To be honest, I am getting sick of Demyx. He could be a space alien from Mars, there is nothing against it. The only thing is, there is nothing to support it. If you disagree about him being given orders to kill Sora, then that means the Org should not be upset when Sora defends himself. If he was given orders to kill Sora, then by your logic the Org struck the first blow, thus Sora is given permission to hunt down the Org, it's friends and it's family.

    First off, Sora lacks that negotiating skill. He is the sort of guy who would blow himself up if he thought it would annoy Saix. But apart from that, what about all those hearts gone into the fake kingdom hearts? They would be sacrificed for the hearts of 6 people. I think there was a reason DiZ tried to get the hearts into his machine, instead of just trying to blow the thing up. And what about all the things they would do after their hearts are restored? I imagine there is a good chance they would fuel the tide of heartless, or even worse, make a new enemy. I doubt they would go home and live happy, productive lives. I think that they would cause trouble sooner than later.

    The thing is, when Sora tries his hardest, people end up dieing. It is the houdini scene. "I can take any hit in the stomach, have a go!" "OOF! My appendix!"


    I do not so much think they are evil, more that they have a goal, and are wholly committed to it. The only two outcomes are success or death. The first one is unacceptable. Millions of hearts would be lost, with the promise of more problems in future. The second is viable.

    Before you say "Axel was not after the goal, remember, he found something just as good; Roxas and Sora's presence. As for the Castle Oblivion Crew, I would say they were busy trying to recruit the Keybladers for the task, as well as trying to take over the Org for some reason.

    I never go down. Ever seen one of those undead things in an Anime? I just keep on coming, despite what you throw at me. (unless you actually change my mind! But it is difficult to do that! :))

    have fun Replying! I know I am!
  9. John Clay Rice Hollow Bastion Committee

    May 14, 2007
    Rupp Arena
    Riku wanted to destroy Xehanort because Xehanort was trying to use Riku as his puppet. You know like he did in the first game. Riku accepted the darkness but he didn't want his heart taken over again by Xehanort.
  10. P Banned

    Oct 5, 2007
    New Zealand
    That bit is old, I know, but if you say we should ignore what Riku says because it is weird... Well I would say by that logic, Org 13 should be completley ignored.
  11. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

    Dec 20, 2007
    OK, I said this before. The Orgs version of revenge was forcing Sora to kill heartless, in not a nice way. They tried playing nice, but it didnt work (they lost Demyx), so they played rough. The curse on the Grim Reaper was just an example of this. And Luxord probably was watching WSOP for the rest of the game when you didnt see him.

    I mean really, could you imagine him playing poker? I mean, he would literally have no tell at all!

    If its a great quote, I sig quote it.

    Ok, so Sora forgot Demyx was a nobody, then realized it when Donald reminded him. Ok, but I don't get why Sora was pushing, "I bet you cant fight! But we can!" (donald assisted that one), "Who is this kook?" and Donald also adding "You cant trick us" when Demyx said he had a heart. Yeah, maybe it was a lie on Demyx's part, but maybe Demyx really wanted to believe he could have a heart.

    (I moved your quote for flow of thought)

    Demyx did try to defuse the sitaution. He said, "We do too have hearts, dont be mad."

    Also, I dont believe his mission was to kill Sora, I said it once, killing thier last hope would not be logical.

    I believe he probably knew Roxas was in there, and was tring to get him out. Notice the cue cards in the Underworld said "If subject does not respond, you aggresion to liberate his true disposition." I believe he really wanted to see Roxas again.

    He may have been unaware that Roxas betrayed them. IE: Notice how little the Org really knows about what is truly going on in the Org. In the Final Mix vids, we find how little one end of the Org knows about what the rest are doing. IE: No one knows where everyone else is, or what they are plotting. So its possible that Demyx was blissfully unaware that Roxas betrayed them prior to DiZ and Riku kidnapping him and actually wanted him back as a friend.

    And dont come back with "They are nobodies, they cant have friends." Because Axel and Roxas were friends. They even had people who personally did not like each other. There is a reference that Vexen and Axel did not like each other.

    Yeah, I see your point. He lowered his gaurd. You scored there.

    Namine messed him up. Granted she was strong armed, but she did more damage to him than any one member of the Org. Also, look at what happens when Sora sees Namine in danger. By this time, think of all the damage she did to him. On the otherhand, look at how little Demyx did, and Sora got all aggresive with him.

    In regards to Axel, Even though CoM was masterminded by Marluxia, the second half of the game, Axel was manipulating EVERYONE! Especially Sora.

    Lot of good points here. But I will peck at the only opening I see.

    How many Org members did run the first time around? In KH2, Xaldin, Axel (ran more from Saix), Demyx, Luxord, and Xigbar. And Sora ran from Saix. The only one who did not run to try to avoid fighting Sora Xenmas, because he was basically backed up against a wall (literally and figurativly). So yeah, they do run.

    I think Riku was just hyper sensitive to light being a master of darkness. By this point, he was not able to walk in the world of light. So he really couldnt have went back home because light was like anti Riku. Riku mentions it several times in CoM and KH2. "I can't go back home like this." So we dont know if bathing Riku in light would really destroy him, or would purge him of his power. He wasnt the Hero of Dawn yet, as he hadnt forced his darkness into submission.

    Ok, think from the perspective of Zexion. What is more dangerous, A guy who can do this...

    and this watch from about 1:20 to about 2:30

    or a 15 year old kid with a psuedo Keyblade?

    Keep in mind how strong the Organization is, and how Riku would fight them without Dark from.

    In regards to Sora, this is the point I was tring to make all along.

    Ok, the Original plan was for Sora to kill heartless on his own, with a little guidance from the Org. So, they were not sacrificing people, they were killing heartless who were basically already dead.

    I think if the Org acheived thier goal, they would have broke up. It seems as if they were already independent. Some may have led good productive lives. Luxord would have won the WSOP, Demyx would have started an Emo band, Saix would probably be a politician, ect. Yeah, maybe the Original 6 would have got in trouble. But hopefully they would have learned thier lesson and changed their ways.

    LOL!!! He's like Lenny from "Of Mice and Men."

    Ok, so you agree, they are not evil.

    Ok in regards the two outcomes. 1) Many of the hearts were already lost. If thier original plan (let Sora do it on his own) then no hearts would have had to have been lost. 2) Just seems to exreme. IE: They might endager someone else, "KILL THEM!"

    LOL, I actually wasnt thinking of coming back with that.

    Yes indeed. I just thought I had you on the ropes, so I unleashed a good chunk of what I had, and then its like "Oh no, I fell for the Rope a Dope."

    Yes I am.

    Ok, what I meant was, Riku states a lot of incoherant thoughts which dont always make sense, so in effect, everything Riku sais is open to interpretation.

    For Example, do you think Riku really wanted to fight Ansem because he stinks? Or was it because he had partial possesion of his body, and he wanted to free himself from him?
  12. P Banned

    Oct 5, 2007
    New Zealand
    WSOP? World Series of poker?

    Playing nice? They never played nice. They tried to make Sora incomplete by killing Roxas, then they constantly "Tested" him by attacking him.

    I must reuse a quote. Donald is stupid too. :D. Anyway, the "I bet you can't fight" was Sora being an ass. The "who is the kook" was an ordinary question. Kook was a fair way to describe Demyx in that situation. The "you can't trick us was Donald spouting off information given by DiZ. You say the org is logical. if so, why would he attack after a small comment like that? It makes no sense. Nobodies do not feel anger, rage or anything else. They can fake, but the only emotion they truly have is a lust for hearts. (Roxas excluded, as he has a connection to Sora's heart that allows him to feel emotion, in turn working on Axel)

    He cannot be unaware of Roxas's decision. He yells "Silence traitor!" and constantly moans "Roxas, come back to us!" I think he knows, especially if his mission is to find out about Roxas.

    Now, I would say that he wants to see Roxas again, but Roxas hates him. Roxas would not let Sora hurt a friend of his, just like he caused Sora to cry when leaving TT.

    Also, I know killing Sora would be illogical. But until you provide a better answer, the only thing I can assume is that he tried to kill him. It may have been another test, but if so, he would have run, not fought to the end.

    thus giving Demyx a chance to run, right?

    Remember, Sora is light hearted, and stupid. Axel was a friend of his, as he did not try to kill Sora ever. (in memory) As for Namine, she is half of kairi. She also messed his memories up so he thought she was his best bud. It would hurt him more than it would hurt her if he attacked her. Also, he never really got a chance to. (excluding COM, and I have already given reasons he would not attack her there)

    Exactly. So if they had all this running prowess, why didn't Demyx flee the second time? According to you, he was not trying to kill Sora. The only reason others did not run, was because they were trying to kill Sora. Demyx however, was not. (so you say) So why would he not flee? I can hardly think he is unable to.

    This is just stupid now. He was being caused pain by it, and I think that anything that affects Sora or Riku in a way they do not like gives them the right to strike back. Even if Zexion was not trying to kill him, he was allowed to attack back.

    The thing is, normally the hearts go to kingdom hearts, the Heart version of heaven. Instead, they go to the Org, who absorb them to gain hearts. They were messing with more than a dead heart.

    Really? You really think that? I think they would try something evil eventually. The six would certainly just keep experimenting.

    Who? Anyway, the point I am trying to make, is that when doing the test, Sora does not know the difference. So when someone attacks him, he does the smart thing, and strikes back, with no "test" concept in his mind.

    It would prevent millions of hearts vanishing for the sake of 12 hearts. Also, the original six let a plague of heartless out across the world! How is that not evil? What the nobodies were doing was looking out for themselves, only themselves. They were unable to do anything else, so that aspect can be forgiven. Maybe. But before that, the unleashed the darkness in people's hearts. Evil? Yes. They used subjects/prisoners from Ansem's realm for test subjects!

    Oh... D'oh! :0

    I wonder how long this will go on for, and if anyone else will join in. Right?

    The later of course. Riku is not really into making speeches like Sora, or mickey. He keeps it short and sweet.

    One last blow, forcing Sora to do anything he does not want to do warrants an attack.

    Oh, and remember, Sora knows Demyx is with Xaldin, and he knows Xaldin has just attacked beast. He also knows Demyx stole the olympus stone. He is also told that they are bad by DiZ, Yen Sid, and Mickey. He then tries to kill them with his newfound knowledge. The Org is far from victims. More like the bad guy in a comic who tries to make a weapon out of Nuclear power, then gets dunked in it and transforms into a big monster.
  13. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

    Dec 20, 2007
    Lenny, from "Of Mice and Men" was basically a big mentally disabled guy in a novel. Unforunatly, he was too strong from his own good, and everything he touched, he broke.

    *Spoiler* Towards the end of the book he accidentally kills a well respected mans daughter, and is forced to run out of town. Fearing a mob of people would torture him to death, his best friend kills him in a rather emotional end. *sob*

    Demyx. Ok, I think Demyx was there to resurect Roxas from Sora. He said he was tring to reach him. I think he realized Roxas didnt want to go back, when Roxas refused to respond, thus the "Silence Traitor!" I think at that point he realized, much like Axel, "The Roxas I know is long gone." I dont believe he had any other orders than try to reach Roxas, so he took the intiative on his own to end it. Granted, that was not the nicest thing. But, when you realize your hope is lost, and you cannot feel sympathy, what do you do?

    You have yet to prove Siax was bad prior to Hallow Bastion 2nd visit. Same with Luxord.

    I believe they did play nice, considering the only person who was attacked by nobodies was Sora, Donald, Goofy, Leon, Seifer, and thats about it. If the Org was not playing nice, they would have been much more aggresive and attacked towns directly not no half hearted attack, but full on attempt to destroy something.

    But no, Malificent and Pete are the only enemies you see for the first half of the game.

    If Vexen, Lexaen and Zexion wanted to kill riku, they could have. But they didn't. Yeah they did hurt him. But they did not try to kill him.

    Dude, you know that Kingdom Hearts was consumed by the heartless right? It shows this at the end of Kingdom Hearts 1. So yeah, I would say all lost hearts are as good as dead.

    Ok, the Org is NOT like a comic book villain, and its a shame you even mentioned that.

    The Org is a very well written "villain."

    A good villain is one that gets you emotionally involved. IE: Fear, Respect ect. The best example would be Darth Vader from Star Wars Episode 3, 4, and5. Yeah, I put Vader in the good villain catagory.

    The BEST villains are ones you actually feel bad for, or you can kinda see as good guys who are misguided. The best example would Be Vader from Episode 6, or Magneto.

    The Org falls into the later category.
  14. Repliku Chaser

    Xaldin, Xemnas and Saix. I am not sure how anyone thinks Saix was justified in what he was doing. He was colder possibly even than the other two, torturing Sora and feeding off the emotions it caused Sora to experience. Saix was more Xemnas's right hand man than Xigbar seemed to be. Again, the plans of Luxord, Xigbar and Xaldin to corrupt beings and change them to powerful Heartless was an ongoing plan and not just something thought up out of the blue. The Org was very precise and it often took Riku to point out the scenarios to Sora through his means and also to pull Sora out of spots he was trapped in. Whether or not you believe they moved about other Heartless or want to pin it all on Maleficent and Pete who were laughing stocks the whole game, it doesn't matter. What does is that there is PROOF that the three made the large Heartless which were doing a lot more and also proof enough that Saix could control the Heartless at Hollow Bastion and did so.

    The situation was Demyx was nothing of consequence. As said formerly, Demyx was nothing big to the Org and did not really hold major plot development in anything. Axel had the mission of either converting Roxas back to the Org or was ordered to -destroy- Roxas. Demyx seemed to fill that spot afterwards when Axel betrayed the Org because he would not complete the mission and instead sought to bring Roxas back. It is possible that Demyx could not discern Sora from Roxas and so he was following the orders formerly that Axel was, but he was out to take him down. If not to kill him, to take him back to the Org, which ultimately could have spelled serious trouble as well.

    Sora did not start the war. Xaldin's attack on Beast was truly the worst thing to happen at the beginning of the game and this was prior to Demyx. Also, Demyx doing his game there in the Underworld..if you lost you died. It was obviously -not- a thing to take lightly, so Demyx did his own wrong and the orders that Axel had would seem to have fallen to Demyx. I can pretty well be assured that Xaldin and Saix were a lot more important as was Xigbar and Luxord. Demyx was doing menial tasks.

    There is never once declared a point where the Org says anything like 'Sora is fighting us and caused the scenario to turn so let's take him out now'. In fact, Saix asks Xemnas if now they can stop playing games and do the real plan and Xemnas affirms it. They were done -using- Sora and his use was no longer necessary as the KH there was filled to what it needed to be. And yes, Sora did kill Luxord. It wasn't like Luxord wasn't expecting and wanting the competition though. They were out to kill Sora but each was also playing a sort of game with it which should say that they were overly confident they could get rid of him and they failed. King Mickey did tell Sora that this was how the Org at the castle would fight. For people so ticked off at Sora, they were weren't taking things very seriously if they could afford to just play games to kill him off and also not a single Org member ever brought up anything about poor Demyx. So really, they had this stuff planned and believed most likely Xemnas could and would bring them back. After all, at the end of the game even, Xemnas was using their weapons and such against the two boys. They weren't really dying like normal people would as in 'this is the end', or quite a few weren't. The only ones who acted that way more were in CoM because the chances of Xemnas bringing back traitors was pretty darn slim.

    Larxene when confronting Sora kicks him first so hard he falls back. She also tosses Repliku aside and mocks Sora saying Repliku is a fake and says how Namine was used. She had been goading him all along because she is a -sadist- and enjoyed making him suffer. She brought that combat on herself with the mockery and the first blow.

    Marluxia - Marluxia lured Sora there to use in his elaborate plan to wipe out Xemnas and take power for himself. He was a serial killer that had no conscience and merely was out for power. He had no purpose other than seeking power. He hid behind a girl and was a coward, used replicas etc. He brought the fight to himself and had to die to be stopped from his schemes.

    Vexen - Sora wasn't trying to -kill- Vexen. Vexen was there and probably going to vanish again after he said words to Sora about how they didn't need him because the Org had Roxas. However, Axel, on order of Marluxia to 'kill the traitor' did him in before Vexen could declare anything. Sora fought to defend himself.

    Axel - Axel challenged Sora the first time. The second time, Marluxia framed Axel insisting he was going to cut through Namine to get at him. Sora and his 'defense of all wussy girls' took a stance against Axel then because Axel didn't dispute the fact and Marluxia held Namine and left. Axel faked his death. It was a lame fight that probably did not need to happen but it was over a girl. Too many guys will have that flaw.

    Due to the fact Sora did not really remember the Nobodies from Castle Oblivion but Riku did, Sora was not really knowing anything. If anything in some cases, he may have been acting out of instinct of both himself and Roxas.

    Yes, they were using him. That's the whole point of the plot in a nutshell. So what if he'd kill Heartless regularly, sending their hearts back to the "TRUE" Kingdom Hearts? They go back to the cycle that way. Going to this faux place to support a group of zealot fanatical people that were taking the Hearts of many people to exist themselves was wrong and defies the purpose of a Keyblade Wielder. These are Hearts of countless people being used who did not have to perish in the first place, let alone the fact they would not go to where they were -supposed- to go.

    Zexion, Vexen and Lexaeus were using Riku and did try to destroy him once they figured out he was not going to go along with their plans.

    Vexen makes the Replica after stealing Riku's persona and fighting style. Riku did not really deal with him so much after that. The Org could not convince him to do anything against Sora and so used the Replica instead. Also, the way they tortured Repliku was horrible. Whether he had a 'synthetic' heart or not, he has to be the most tragic character in that story or probably any of the KHs. Riku and Roxas are pretty well debatable who would go for second. Note, both Riku and Roxas wanted nothing to do with the Org.

    Lexaeus did go to destroy Riku and bring out the Darkness. Zexion sensed early on that Riku smelled 'like the Superior'. They knew he had something bad in him and went on to keep terrorizing him. Lexaeus died for trying to kill Riku and get the being inside out. He won to get Ansem (Xehanort's Heartless) out but also perished easily. Zexion was out to destroy Riku. There was no intentions AT ALL of using Riku at this point. He was mentally assaulting him using Sora's image to call him a betrayer and was beating him down physically because Riku would not strike back. Namine saved Riku by showing him it was an illusion and that Riku could use Darkness in the same way Zexion was, to sniff out the foe and attack directly. Zexion had all intentions to kill Riku who did less than Sora had. Riku was attempted to be a tool and when he proved he would not bow down and give into Darkness, they tried to destroy him and take what they wanted. End of story here. In quite a few ways he had it harder than Sora, contending with the Org and also Ansem.

    I don't see this as happening. Xemnas was a power freak. Axel did not want to go -kill- Roxas and he was threatened to be turned into a Dusk. The Nobodies of CoM had reasons to fear Xemnas and wanted to take him out while he slept. Both Marluxia and Vexen were delving into the affairs of Xemnas. Zexion wanted no real part in it and it was probably because he knew it was folly and just going to turn out bad. I don't see the Org as being let to just go off and do whatever because Xemnas was their fanatical leader and they were going to follow, whether they liked it or not. He needed them and exerted a lot of control.

    The Org top members all had a plan before they became Nobodies. They did betray Ansem the Wise and knew it. Perhaps we will find more on why they did this in BBS and 358/2 Days but still, even though Ansem turned into a very vengeful man, his whole world was destroyed by what they did and so were tons of lives; all because the top members who would lead the Org would not listen to him and stop an experiment that he was sorry he ever started. He was not a perfect man, but no one is. In the end, he apologized for his deeds and you can even see he's tired and just wants things to be made right at TWTNW. He realized his errors and the same cannot be said for an Org member except for Roxas and Axel. I find it funny that DiZ gets no pity but the people going around causing massive damage to many places out of personal advancement and a bunch of sociopaths get far more. The Org was cool but eh, even again if I sympathize with their problems, I cannot justify how they were going about resolving them. Not once did the Org ask anyone for -help- or want an alternate solution. They made the war. Not Sora.

    This is the point right here. You even call them -villains-. You -can- feel sorry for their plight and condition. Anyone probably could. However, would you still not -try- to stop Darth Vader or Magneto? It pains Professor X every time he has to go against Magneto but yet he still does it because he knows he has to. If no one stopped the Org, they were a serious problem and you can't tell me you expected them to just be content etc and stop what they were doing if they became 'real'. Also, all those Hearts that were stolen from other people needed to go back to the cycle. It's like stealing souls and using them...that's not the least bit disturbing?

    Note in KH2, Sora isn't going around with the jovial "Ha-ha!" and such as he strikes things. He's a lot more serious and it would just be really disturbing if he was doing the kiddish stuff of prior. You are right. These aren't the typical slap on villains that we just automatically know to just get rid of. There is a sympathy factor there. However, whether or not you feel sorry for them, there is still nothing saying they were going to do good. The only emotions Xemnas seemed to want to feel were hatred and anger etc. I trust that guy as a whole being to destroy what's left and he's the leader.

    I collected various quotes from your posts to not go over the same things repeatedly that you two have been going over so apologies if it seems to waver around some. I was surprised to see this still going but apparently a lot of people really feel Sora was such a jerk. I just can't. I know that even though I'd have more intelligence and perception than Sora, it seems pretty obvious that the Org were not going to sway and that's the reason they needed stopped. It's not because they were -Nobodies-. It's what the Nobodies were doing.
  15. DancingCookie Traverse Town Homebody

    Jun 27, 2007
    Order's Sanctuary
    Uh, not to interrupt your discussion or anything, but I just thought of a few things;

    The reason Sora forgave Namine and Axel was because they both apologized for what they did. And they meant it. Plus, it was pretty odvious that Namine wasn't messing with Sora of her own free will.Yeah, Axel only helped Sora after he realized that he couldn't get Roxas back, but he also blew himself up to save him. If someone was a jerk to be, then killed themself to save me, I'd forgive them.

    Sora also had no idea what was going on for almost the entire series. I mean, if you were suddenly pulled from your home and sent on this grand adventure, you'd be a tad confused, right? And think of the...five or so people calling themselves Ansem.

    I'm surpried Sora didn't snap halfway through the game and spend the rest of it in a corner mumbling gibberish to himself. Imagine having the responsibility of keeping the Worlds safe at age 15. I'd crack after 10 minutes. Maybe 15. My point is that Sora's a confused teenager who spent a large portion of the game on an emotional high. And that's not good. Was it Xigbar who said that it was 10 years too early for Sora to be Keybarer? Cause he was totally right.
  16. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

    Dec 20, 2007
    Oh no... Repliku is back...

    I already outlined why Saix was so cruel. Prior to the Hallow Bastion 2nd Visit, Sora basically spitting on every nobody at the same time and saying he would rather watch them die, and killing a key member (dude, no matter how you slice it, Demyx was an Org member, not just some random nobody) Saix was a nice guy.

    If I seen Sora do all he did up to this point, I would probably mean too. I'm sure most people would.

    However, if they all regained thier hearts, Xemnas power over them would fade. They would have no reason to follow him. 1 guy vs 6? I dont think so.

    Yeah, actually Sora does actually laugh when he strikes things. Not as much as KH1, but its still there.

    Yeah, about the type of villains they are, I posted below. Its more than just a sympathy factor.

    Xehanort/Xemnas was a bad egg. But I dont think the rest were quite so wicked.

    I moved your quote for clarity of thought.

    Ok, lets change the word then... "anti-hero."

    Magneto: There are many Magneto like heroes. Basically he represents the unfortunate, who gain power, and uses it to change the status quo.They dont always do it in the nicest way. Some who are more notable: Robin Hood, Zorro, Memphis Rains, Spawn, the guy from "V for Vendetta", The Count of Monte Cristo, and even Riku (yeah, I said it.)

    Some real life heroes who follow the same criteria: William Wallace, The American Revolutionaries, The Murieta Brothers, and Francis Drake.

    Now, if you cheered for the heroes in the above listed stories, then you know where I'm coming from. Also, there are many people who believe that the above real life heroes were heroes. I doubt that all those history books could be wrong in sayng that they were heroes, but guess what, other history books say they were "villians."

    Ok, now that we got the Magneto type... lets look at the Vader type.

    Vader type of "villain", or "anti-hero" is someone who truly is bad, but only because they were pushed beyond normal cercustances, and turned dark. They sometimes help out the good, but are generally bad people.

    Some fictional ones are, Rambo, Cloud, Jack Sparrow, The Count of Monte Cristo, Memphis Rains (Gone in 60 Seconds), Oceans 11, Ghost Rider, Alucard, Vincent, Cecil (the dark knight), Spawn (again),The Man With No Name (from all those Clint Eastwood spegetti westerns), Venom (in the comics, he later becomes a hero), Riku from CoM (yeah, I brought it up again), Axel (whom you have defended), and Roxas.

    Wow, thats quite a list. Some of the names over lapp. But guess what, sometimes they are called heroes.

    Here is my point
    Being a hero or a villain or an anti-hero... is all a matter of perspective. Yeah, I feel sorry for the Org. Yeah, they may not be the nicest guys around.

    But, they didnt all deserve to die. Yes, they should have been stopped, but not destroyed.
  17. Repliku Chaser

    Xemnas was very powerful and had a lot of control. He could wipe them out himself. I really am not buying this. Also they were pretty devoted to his cause, whatever it was and I think it had to do with either dealing with doing something about a situation in BBS time that is unresolved or dealing with a future boss that is outlined in Coded.

    Hey again lol

    Axel was an anti-hero. Riku was an anti-hero. The definition of anti-hero is a person that falls to the wayside and does some bad things but later turns good and tries to make up for the past deeds and also becomes essentially a hero. It's a former villain turned good. The Org was not this at all.

    Robin Hood, V for Vendetta, Zorro etc - These people were all in their fictional settings (which in some cases were also real settings) doing things to make the oppressed people's lives better. They were considered vigilantes and in the case of V, a terrorist. They were all freedom fighters, taking from the rich or destroying things of the rich, and giving to the poor or fighting for freedom from evil tyrants. They weren't really anti-heroes. They would be called heroes, though by those they opposed, villains. In the tales though, it is assumed most people call Robin Hood, V and Zorro and others like that 'heroes' doing deeds under necessity. It's one of those 'law' versus 'justice' issues and the heroes are following justice while the tyrants make bad laws.

    Magneto - He has been both an anti-hero and a villain. He becomes a villain every time he tries to destroy humanity and proclaim mutants are above and superior to humans, which causes a problem. When he comes down from this to accepting not all humans are out to rid the world of mutants and sees that they aren't all bad is usually when he's an anti-hero.

    William Wallace - William Wallace is a Scottish person who led a resistance against the occupying forces of England because the people did not want to be ruled over. This was during the Wars for Scottish Independence. He was never an 'anti-hero'. He was a hero to the Scottish people who were fighting for freedom. The British may have looked at him as an enemy but he was never a 'villain'.

    The American Revolutionaries - They fought for freedom from England as well, not wanting to be under the King and paying ridiculous taxes when they had done much to try to leave this behind. Also, many of these revolutionaries were Scottish though it gets downplayed, and from other areas that were oppressed. They weren't 'villains'. They were on the other side of a war.

    The Murieta Brothers - You mean Joaquin and his 4 other compatriots I take it. To many people he was considered a Mexican hero while to the opposite side he was considered a ruthless vigilante and murderer. Considering Mexicans were vastly abused, mistreated, written out of claims of territory, taxed ridiculously, and starving, he turned to a life of crime along with others, stealing cattle/horses, committing robberies and murdering. The legends after his death (if he did die there because no one was sure if the head was truly his or not at that time) make him more out to be an anti-hero than he was when he was hustling, stole 100k and murdered some 19 people. No one can validate for true if he ever became an 'anti-hero' or not though certain occurrences within a newspaper by John Rollin Ridge of a tale of the man did occur though whether Joaquin had anything to do with those things is debatable. So really he and his brothers aren't really what I'd call anti-heroes unless the 2nd part after he allegedly 'died' has any validation. Prior to that he and the other 4 were out for themselves and did not go about spreading the wealth around.

    Francis Drake - Drake was a privateer, so in other words, a pirate that worked for the British. He was technically an anti-hero if you consider that he was once a pirate that became commissioned by the British and later would lead second in command against the Spanish Armada. I'm sure the Spanish wouldn't call a privateer of Great Britain an anti-hero or a hero, but this is in the eye of the beholder. Privateers were sometimes worse than pirates who had no allegiance to nations.

    Depending on where you are from and your POV the people you mentioned above, some could be labeled as anti-heroes or they could be labeled as traitors or villains. However, history itself with investigation can reveal a lot.

    Darth Vader - Anakin was whiny, emo, out of control and not listening to reason. He fell to the wayside because he did not bother to tell the JEDI of his situation with Padme but was instead elusive even with Yoda, when describing the scene. He had no proof a 'dream' would come true and yet in the end the dream did happen because he made it occur. He was his own worst enemy because he was impatient, wanting more than he should have and fell for plots. When he became Darth Vader, he stopped feeling all of these things since all that Sidious did basically and he himself did as a pawn, was not needed. He was a shell of his former self and though he had great qualities once, it took his son to bring those back out and find a reason to fight for good again.

    Rambo - Rambo was a war veteran charged with going and saving soldiers who were POWs. He had some issues and all but I would consider him more an anti-hero as he did find his path and way. I don't consider him a Darth Vader sort at all.

    Cloud - Cloud Strife was never really a -bad- guy. He worked for a bad corporation at one time but never did anything major even and well, that was the type of work that was available to young men. He was never an anti-hero really. Zack, whom he got memories from for the SOLDIER deal, was more an anti-hero than Cloud was.

    Ghost Rider/Alucard/Spawn/Venom - I can put these guys together and some of the others you mention. Ghost Rider and Alucard were as they were and decided to go against the evil above them. This can be said about Dante too. Spawn had a life and then died, being put in the same situation then as GR and Alucard. Venom was Eddie Brock who did some stupid things and then wanted revenge for it, got Venom and well, went out being a criminal, but turned things around too. All of these guys in my book would be anti-heroes because they each spent time as villains and then became better. The Org did NOT do this. There is nothing showing that the Org were -ever- going to be good guys and they were out for themselves. I'd put these guys up in the other group more than this one.

    Riku - Riku was a good kid and was destined to be the Keyblade bearer. However, Xehanort's Heartless convinced him to open the heart of his world just as Xehanort had discovered he could do on Hollow Bastion. Riku thought it would take him to another world and well, he was duped. Riku, even at his worst was really someone who was falling to Darkness, like Anakin was, but Sora could have well, been more perceptive too and said something. Riku never really trusted the Dark Council. He was just desperate to save Kairi and felt very misplaced when Donald basically told Riku he could not go with them. Maleficent played on Riku's insecurity and Ansem played with his desperation. In the end of KH, Riku turns things around, finds himself and also fights against Ansem, letting Kairi and Sora's other pals get out of Hollow Bastion. He then is thrown to Darkness and later coaxes Sora to keep up the fight. He remains in Darkness without so much as a complaint. In CoM, he fights for his body and control and has matured quite a bit and also fights for his life against the Org. He refuses to be manipulated again, and he also refuses it when DiZ comes along and tells him things. He is definitely an anti-hero and could have been the hero had his destiny to be the Keyblade bearer not been known by Heartless Ansem.

    Roxas - Roxas was hard to say whether he's a hero or not really. He did not really do anything for anyone else and wasn't given the real chance to. He fled the Org to get away though which clearly could make him an anti-hero because he didn't like what he was doing and wanted answers as to why he had the Keyblade and was having weird dreams. He did try to help out his friends in the fake Twilight Town and he does get sent after Heartless with the Org, but it is doubtful Roxas fully understood everything that was planned either. He was a tool and when he ran off, their attentions turned back to controlling Sora. I'd say though that in the end he was probably an anti-hero since he did decide to go back to Sora in the end even if they fought later. He found out why Sora fought, which was -for his friends- and he realized it wasn't all about him. So, really, Roxas since he merged back etc, yeah, he'd be an anti-hero after some thought. I would not have really ever considered him a villain though. In his case, he was just working for the wrong side and since he had no memories of who he was, it kind of leads one to not class him with the rest of the Org.

    Axel - Axel is an anti-hero easily. He does acts to catch others in the Org of conspiracy and acts on them. He also tried to do things out of selfishness to get Roxas back, and also under the threat of his life being taken if he failed to either bring Roxas back or kill him. However, he turns around and apologizes etc after helping Sora. That pretty much sets him as he was. I can't say though he'd be in the Darth Vader scenario except for relation to how he dies because he was not particularly emo and just was essentially a wild card.

    The people you mentioned, many of them did -good- things after a period of doing wrongful things, or were suspected of change. Being a hero is from day 1 you are a person that does good stuff and people acknowledge and believe it's good and in their favor etc. Being an anti-hero is being either a fallen hero that gets back up to do it again or being a villain that turns hero. Being a villain usually means you are the bad guy that is trying to destroy things, oppress people, or murder etc.

    Seeing as the Org -never- did anything to show they were heroes in any regard from the beginning, they cannot be heroes. The only beings they could be 'heroes' to were the Nobodies and it is clear that the other Nobodies were all under Xemnas and assigned to members of the Org. They were used as cannon fodder and how many 'higher Nobodies' had been changed to Dusks, we may never know. Something tells me the life of a Nobody wasn't that great. Especially with how some of the Org tormented others, dominated over things, manipulated people etc. I'd think they really could not care either way to call Xemnas or any of the Org as heroes at all. It's likely the other Nobodies weren't going to get in this deal of getting their Hearts back either and if everyone did, Xemnas would have some way of controlling them, probably by linking the Hearts through him and having control of his pseudo KH. I really do not see them as being free, including the Org members. Perhaps at one point -some- of the Org before they joined the Org were 'heroes' but it is clear they all were not in this tale.

    The Org could not be said to be anti-heroes except for Roxas or Axel. They are the only two that showed any kind of depth beyond a selfish 'why can't I have my heart' stuff. They did things for -other- people and even gave up themselves. None of the other Org did it. They were selfish and it was clear that some of the Org were more loyal than others. If Xemnas was not as tough as he was, he was in charge of a bunch of sociopathic people that had NO conscience or caring and he'd have fallen. Vexen and Marluxia both were doing investigations and trying to figure out how to get rid of Xemnas and both were perhaps even more psychopathic in nature. Xemnas was a fanatic and he had to ensure control. Those who were loyal knew better than to do anything else. Xigbar may have been someone that wasn't such a bad guy at one time since he's supposedly in BBS but we'll see I suppose. The Org though can't be anti-heroes because they never showed that they were rising to be -good- and help others over themselves. Even if their cause was not so bad, their deeds were horrendous.

    Villains - Yes, this is what they are. Whether they are 'misunderstood' villains or not, they are still what they are. They murdered, they took advantage of others, they manipulated, they abused and tormented, they oppressed, they spread fear etc. Whether or not we feel sorry for them because they have a condition that has to be considered when tacking on an 'evil level' to them or not, they still were the bad guys.

    Yes, I do agree with you on some points, mainly on Demyx, that Sora did not have to call him out and could have let the wussy run and maybe he'd have changed, but again, after fighting him once in which he could have died, what's to say it wasn't just better to get rid of this guy and get it over with? Demyx also had total control to run away. So, he made his choice to go with a reaction instead. Sora could have said the same crap to Saix and Saix would have just laughed and dark portaled. Demyx would not have gotten in any more trouble than other Org members would have for taking off when they did. So really, even though I do agree that Demyx may have been one of the only ones other than Axel that was salvageable and Sora kind of blew it there, I do see that Demyx is also responsible. As for any of the others, as much as I thought some were cooler than others, I don't see things changing for them unless the whole story of CoM or KH2 was rewritten without Xemnas, Saix, Xaldin, Marluxia and Vexen in it. Those were the worst of the Org with no conscience at all, presumably.
  18. P Banned

    Oct 5, 2007
    New Zealand
    Argg! Replku! This was my fight!

    My turn: Why are we discussing comic book heroes? I was using the cliche example of them being the type that steals the unstable potion, swallows it, then becomes a monster.

    Anyway, Demyx was not a good guy. Whatever way you look at it, he tried to kill Sora. Before you bring out the old "Sora taunted him" if that was a reason to try to kill him, Sora would have killed and been killed by a whole lot. Sora was justified in killing him in this stage of the game, and then afterwards, everyone just throws themselves onto Sora, trying to piss him off. He kills them.

    Also, KH did not get destroyed in the end of KH1. The heartless always lived there. the strongest light lies in deepest darkness. It was never consumed. Hearts return to this place when they get released. The org disrupted this, and made it so the hearts got put into the fake one.

    Something else I have said before, if you attack Sora, he will attack you until he is interupted, dies, or you flee. You only do not flee if you are after his death.
  19. tataya Moogle Assistant

    Jan 18, 2008
    In your mind.
    I'm sorry, but I just have to put in my two cents right now.

    Like someone said earlier (I'm really sorry that I don't remember your name), Sora is a little young to have the fate of the entire universe on his shoulders. He's bound to crack sometime. Sora just wanted to go back home to the Destiny Islands with Riku so that he could be with Kairi and everyone else there. If you remember back to Yen Sid's Tower, he didn't respond to the quest by saying, "Yippie kai-yay kai-yay let's go defeat a mysterious sadistic group of Nobodies!" He was more in the frameset of "Another quest, oh joy--not---let's just go finish this off, find Riku and the King, and get back to our normal lives."

    Sora is really confused, and after the Demyx battle, he was filled with adrenaline and anger (he probably remembered when Demyx called him "Roxas" and didn't know who the hay Roxas was), which was probably why he said, "Anyone from the Organization who'd like to be next?!". The Org was cruel to him, going around and calling him Roxas, then not backing it up with a very good explaination. Sora probably felt scared, like he wasn't himself at all.

    Also, I do believe that most people forget that:

    ---There was almost an entire year between the end of CoM and the prologue of KHII. Who knows what the Org could have done in that time period? Picked flowers to give to the townsfolk at Port Royal? Nay, I think they were building up their Heartless hordes, waiting for Sora to reawaken. Plus, they probably whacked up a few worlds while they were at it. Remember, they were still recruiting members in the KHIIFM+ scenes (I'm thinking of the one between Xigbar and Zexion).

    ---It's impossible for the Org to hate. They're Nobodies. They could never feel in the first place (Roxas only very slightly, as his "Somebody," aka Sora, was still alive). Even Axel admitted that Roxas only made him "feel" like he had a heart, admitting that they did not hearts, contrary to Demyx's "belief". So therefore, they could not be "mad" that Demyx faded. They don't even mention the fact that Demyx was gone! Even in The World that Never Was, after you defeat Saix, Xemnas never mentions that you destroyed his right-hand man. He's just all, "Oh Ansem teh Wise, I'm just so much better than j0000000 KINGDOM HEARTSSSSS MARRY MEEEE!! Sora you die now you little twit." The faded Org members are never mentioned after their destruction. The Org is just a bunch of psychos with no hearts or feelings, no matter which member (I don't count Roxas and Axel; they are the wild cards).

    CoM was just whacked up in my opinion. There was what was happening currently, Sora turning into an emo, then finding out that the bad guy and girl (Marluxia and Larxene) were bad guys in the major group of bad guys, and that one of the bad guys in the castle (Axel) was really trying to stop the bad guy and girl. And don't even start about what happened in the basement! I got a headache. Do most KH fans even go into CoM after playing through KH? I don't know many/any at all who's played all three games. Mostly it's only KH and KHII and then they're all "Wait, there's a game inbetween?" So I usually ignore CoM.

    I think that after a while (maybe this was prior/after the second Demyx fight or the Xaldin fight), the Org realized that Sora was more dangerous than they had thought him to be, so they decided to try to eliminate him, thinking that if they did, maybe they could find another Keybearer who would be more co-operating, as well as less imbecilic (is that even a word?) then Sora. Of course, that failed. And that led to their destruction.
  20. Princess Celestia Supreme Co-Ruler of Equestria

    Dec 20, 2007
    UK KH1: All this happened after the Hallow Bastion 2nd visit. I said he was nice prior to that.

    Also, he had no intention of kidnapping Kairi, remember, Kairi was kidnapped by Axel. Who knows what Axel intended to do to her, it was probably pretty bad, if it was enough to turn Sora into a heartless.

    If anything... Saix protected her from Axel.
    Thats the only point I was trying to make. Yeah, you can call The Organization evil, because the story was told from Sora's POV.

    I do believe the Org was capable of good things... if they only had a heart. (I got the Tinman song from the Wizard of Oz now...)

    Ok, since our version of a hero, and villain are simply a matter of which end the story is told from, then The Organization was heroes to the Nobodies. Meaning, Sora was a villain to the nobodies, as he killed them in droves, usually not knowing what they were, thier objective, or even why they were there.

    I use the fact that my arguement has the popular vote. I doubt everyone else was wrong entirely.

    That being said, I cant win an arguement with all 3 of you, especially against some so skilled in debating.

    So until I get support, I'm bowing out of this arguement. Buh-bye.

    PS: Unless I come up with some really good arguement.
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