Evolution vs Religion

I would like to remind you that this is a debate. Debates aren't meant to be friendly little flowerfests. All we are doing here is having a discussion on what makes more sense when you get down to it. None of my posts or any others here have come across as 'flaming' of others. Sure every once in awhile it gets heated but that is a debate for you.

Honestly it's great you are a Taoist. But what does that have to do with the topic at hand? =/ You could have stated what views Taoism has on Creationism or Evolutionism.

If you have such a problem with it either deal with the fact this is a debate or leave the thread.

It's your choice to make.

 

Seriously, Peace-and-War, this is a debate and this is the 2nd time you have said for the thread to be closed while others of us wish to talk things out. If you do not like the topic, please leave it. It's not going to be all fancy flowers and dancing rainbows with such a serious debate.

No one said 'all' Christians are hypocrites or are bad. Yes, 'one' person said that science is trying to abolish Christianity, but eh, it's discussion. No one here is 'hating' that I can see and truly I appreciate the conduct of all people in here whether we agree or not with one another. It has not been as ugly as it could and it shows a maturity. We get frustrated and fire off some things, sure, but it has for all intents and purposes gone fine on both sides of the line. So let us talk it out and hear things and do what this thread was meant for. I believe if we get that offended we can all take our behinds elsewhere and don't need to be treated like little kids.

 

Since its a second time that shows that the problem is still occuring.
Though this is a debate, respect is still important, I see people saying thigs that would disreapect people in real life, I do not see the Evolution side saying that they accept Christians as dedicated to their faith, just things like 'why would you ever believe that?!' I stay on this topic because If I need to I will have to stop a fight at some point, one will come with the way people are posting. Many people on Kh-Vids are quite 'hot-headed' so it shows that we need to be more wary on problems. And I am not treating you as litle children, everything hneeds to be kept in check, so I have taken that duty. I just wish to see RESPECT between people's views, I would not have a problem with anything if everyone could, but I know from posts that this is not possible, so I always keep a watch to make sure reapect is done. And it is the first time I wanted the thred closed the first time was a warning that everyone respect each other, but seems that didn't work that well.

taoisms view on creation and evolution is not widly nown to me, Taoism is about how everything is connected by Tao, it is like the life force of all life but even more, it seems the view would mainly be that you should live life to its fulliest and that everything is and was Tao. If an more experinced Taoist knows anything would be helpful.

 

There hasn't really been any form of dissrespect here, only that people are trying to prove that they are right. :/ But, it's a good thing you do that, but this topic has no reason to be closed at all. And yes, I do know that this thread is bound to have some kind of bashing/flame.

I know nothing of Tao, so I can't help you with that.

 

Please stop interfering. It really is not your place to continue to tell us how to conduct ourselves. You are the only one complaining and telling people to close the thread. The scientists, atheists, christians etc did not ask this. We've said things, made each other grit our teeth and have kept on going. If you don't like it leave it alone.

I am Zen Buddhist and follow Daoist beliefs too and as a Daoist you should know that things will happen in life whether you try to prevent them or not and let things flow as they will. There is no violence here. There are words but no one has said "I HATE YOU" or anything so rotten. Let people speak their minds and answer things for themselves. As I said, we are not little children and this is a harsh debate where people fight wars over and we've handled it quite well. Please, now, let people be. Stop trying to speak for everyone or be a voice above everyone when there is no reason for it.

 

'The Celestine Prophecy' was number one on the New York Times' Bestseller list a few years ago. Harry Potter books also sell a lot of copies, but I don't see this groundswell of religious movement overtaking the world based on faith that either is absolute fact.

 

I found some sites for you, Peace-and-War and will explain some here for anyone interested in the Daoist theory of Cosmogony.

http://www.eng.taoism.org.hk/daoist-beliefs/cosmogony/pg2-2-1.asp

http://www.taodeck.com/his.html#basic

In basics, the Dao or Tao as westerners mostly call it, is the universe. There are varying views of how it was created but it follows along the Indian (Hindu mainly) reference that it was created from 'something' (some kind of matter) as everything in the Dao is created from something else. There usually is not a 'divine creator' but that the universe and the earth were created by an unknown force but unlike Christianity, no deity is necessarily responsible. However, it does not state that there is not one either. Since nothing cannot create nothing in the belief, something was present prior to the forming of the Dao, but it is often left as the unanswerable question. Dao means "The Way" in English and those who believe in the Dao can connect to it, or feel a bond to nature, which although is felt, often cannot be expressed solidly to describe the feeling to others. What I've explained here is 'raw Daoism or Taoism' and it is important to note that Daoism in some aspects has been absorbed into other spiritual followings as well, such as with practices of Qi Gong and Zen Buddhism, so they have extra things to add.

The Dao then is responsible for the creation of the Tai Ji Tu, which is the Yin Yang symbol many people see. The Tai Ji Tu represents many aspects of life, dualism, and a unity. There is chaos and order, change and polarity, and many 'opposites' that humans transpose on things in it. These opposites created life and movement as well as an order to things that live and die. Also, in the duality of things, it is important to note that as in the Yin Yang symbol, there are always parts of the opposite 'element' in each movement. So if there is destruction, there will be some element to creation found as well. There is a thought in Daoist practice that you cannot know one thing without knowing its opposite thing. I.e. You cannot appreciate and comprehend birth without also understanding of death. One would not know how to measure beauty if also there were not ugliness, etc.

There are other aspects in Chinese culture that talk about the 'creation of the world and universe' such as Pangu, but this is not really Dao, even if at times it gets tossed in. In the end though, Daoism does not really explain much other than what I said as to the 'creation' of the Dao or us for that matter.

I hope that helps you at all, Peace-and-War. There isn't much on this to find online that I could find. I have some books, but that's certainly not going to help, and even in those, the 'creation' section is about as short or a bit longer than what I wrote above.

 

Thank you for the help, it is true it is not easy to learn about Tao (I use Tao because most people here are westerners.) I have some books on it too, a copy of the I Ching is one of them but have not read it yet since it arrived today. I read in one of the books that only by learning it from a true master will you find its true natur, but it's not only hard to find a master, but even harder to become a student, so most of the information is slightly scarce.

And please, I ask that you call me PAW, no need tobe so formal, friend.

 

You can call me a Catholic. I'm religious. i take it seriously.

 

Please people, could we get this thread back onto the topic at hand? I'd be very upset if this thread de-evolved into a 'What religion are you?' thread.

Peace-and-War, I hold you responsible for this unwanted topic change. You may have had good intentions but those intentions were misplaced in this instance and have thusly started another topic for this thread. Repliku you are just encouraging him.

So again, could we stay on topic from here on out?

 

Alright. I say religion.

 

-_-

Usually in a debate you provide REASONS backed up with logical sources. You don't just say 'I say religion.' and end it there. It allows no one to reply to you.

In other words: WHY do you say religion wins out over evolution?

 

Hhm, just something i believe in. and besides, if we did evolve from monkeys, where'd they come from? space??

 

I find that the topic really is a misnamed thing. Really, most eastern religions and beliefs do not have an absolute 'creation' for the earth and universe, as I pointed out with the Daoist ideology. I put the Daoist thing here to help PAW but at the same time it could be to show that all religions and beliefs do not go against evolution and even allow for science to help fill in gaps. Some beliefs are very spiritual and still philosophical and this is but an example of one, so religion itself is not the absolute problem. Creationism is the hater of Evolution and vice versa.

So in the end, I do not find it is 'off topic' as was declared. It's an offshoot to the discussion, sure, but it fits with the point in hand to say that all beliefs are not against using science or advancing with things. So, yes, to steer back to things, ProLucrecia, could you be more clear in what you mean? No one in evolution said monkeys come from space.

 

I do see where you are coming from. I admit my hackles got raised a little back there. The topic is 'Evolution vs Religion' not Evolution vs. Christianity. But it is refreshing to see other's beliefs on the subject aside from the Christians once in awhile.

ProLucrecia, I believe you have misunderstood something along the way. Evolution says that our ancestors evolved from apes and eventually stood upright to become the human beings we know today.

Creationism is the belief held by extremist Christians that says all life on the planet was created in 6-7 days by God.

 

You guys are talking about everything you were talking about since the beginning.

I find that funny. lolz

 

I find it funny the thread is still going, and it's going on about the same recycled topics. I'm considering just closing it, do you concur Darky? No one here will ever come up with a true answer, and after this many posts and pages, I believe this forum has debated about as much as possible on this topic.

 

You would be pretty much right to close it. Hek, I actually forgot what we were talking about, and now we is just talking about, something.....I don't know. It seems over though as you say, and we just keep tossing around the same opinions...over and over again. It was a good discussion I guess, but it's not like anyone will give a new answer. Evolution vs Religion, a good fight, but can anyone ever discover the TRUE fact? Maybe some time in future, when we are all ready to listen........It tis time I guess.*bows*

 

I concur, sir. Sinnycap.

Basically recycled topics.

Though, there's still no reason why it should be closed just 'cause of that. I'm sure future members will also enjoy being crushed by the firmly logical aura that is science.

 

I would be sad to see this thread closed. I spent a good deal of time here in this post. So much so certain members have told me I need a break from it. xD

Ultimately it is the staff's decision if it is to be closed or not. Not mine. It is true we haven't gotten an answer but that is because there is no concrete evidence of the divine anywhere that is one side of the debate.

Perhaps it could remain open for future members who may bring something new to the table? Or perhaps new scientific discoveries will be made in the future?